Should they be given a time?????

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Mouse
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Should they be given a time?????

Postby Mouse » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:39 pm

Good day fellow runners,and walkers. As a lot of you know I help with a lot of the Road Races heere in the Peg. Today was our Annual Hypo Half. We do a two wave event. Steve was trying to train me on the computer end of things at the race this morning.
I want to know what you folks feel should happen......Here's what happened. In the second wave, the first female name that pops up on the screen is not the correct one. Neither were the second or the third for that matter. How come you ask??? Well it seems that runner A (female) gave her bib to a male runner. Then the actual runner across the line B (female) is wearing her husband's bib (male). Some people feel that they both should be disqualified. Added into the fact that for $5.00 fee ahead of time you were given a chance to change the name to the correct one. As a long time track and field official, I know where I would be leaning, but I want to know what you folks the runnner is the proper thing to do here. Please keep in mind that all finishers get a medal. That the top 3 in each wave get a Gold, Silver, or Bronze medal.

Thanks for reading. Looking forward to reading your comments.
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Re: Should they be given a time?????

Postby redhead » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:46 pm

Mouse wrote:for $5.00 fee ahead of time you were given a chance to change the name to the correct one

Hmmm ... I say definite DQ ... but I'm a meanie! :evil: :D
Good luck with resolving this one Mouse.
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Postby Jwolf » Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:59 pm

I agree-- DQ for both. Sorry, but the rules are there for a reason. I hate when people think that bibs are interchangable. Some people forget that races are still competitions and need to be governed by the rules of the sport.

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Postby MINITEE » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:05 pm

Yep - I'm with the majority so far. DQ. There was an option given for a name change.

Now, what if the husband/wife had a legitimate mix up with their bibs? Based any time I've picked up my bib, it usually has a sticker with my name/age on it already - if this is the case - then the mix up wouldn't hold any water with me. :snooty:
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Postby Albertatraildog » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:07 pm

Assuming that the entry form clearly spelled out the rules regarding exchanging bibs, the only option in my opinion is to unfortunately DQ both runners. Although these two people probably made unintentional mistakes, they have nevertheless put the race results into question for all the other competitors. DQ'ing them is only fair thing to do for all the others entered in the race.
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Postby Jo-Jo » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:10 pm

Yep...
I agree with the above comments...DQ.
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Postby ian » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:10 pm

First instinct: yes to finishing medals, no to other awards.

Other factors which might be useful to know: were the bibs labeled in any sort of way (e.g., a small sticker with the participant's name) or were they just numbers? Was the race chip timed?

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Postby puttputt » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:21 pm

If the runners involved were good enough to place in the top 3 then I have to think they would be very aware of the rules. Yes, mix ups can happen but as *elite* runners they should have been aware/paying attention to these details.

DQ.
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Postby Jwolf » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:23 pm

ian wrote:Other factors which might be useful to know: were the bibs labeled in any sort of way (e.g., a small sticker with the participant's name) or were they just numbers? Was the race chip timed?


I actually don't think any of these things are relevant. Either way, the rules stand. In some small races I've been in, there is no name on the bib and no chip time. In those cases it's even more important for each competitor to wear the right bib.

Of course, there are mistakes that can be made when race organizers give out bibs, etc, and these can be corrected in official results. It doesn't sound like that's what happened here.

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Postby Mouse » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:49 pm

No it was not chipped time, althou the 3 of us helping were wondering if chips would work in the cold snowy weather.
The bibs do not have the names pre printed on them, it was not a matter of mixing up her husbands, and her bib. She outrite wore his bib. The other women admitted to giving her bib to a guy.
One other thing that I should have made clearer is that you have the straglers of wave one finishing at the same time as the faster ones in wave two.
Enjoying the comments so far, keep them coming.
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Postby turd ferguson » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:51 pm

Mouse, you should have done a poll!

I'm with the DQ crowd for pretty much the same reasons.

The only thing I'll add is that rules are usually there for a reason. Whether its insurance, or to make sure everyone who's in the race has signed the waiver, or to control numbers of participants, or whatever, rules have to be followed and enforced.
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Postby dgrant » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:56 pm

I agree, DQ for sure. It is not like it is the death penalty... from their own perspective they were still there and ran the race in time X. Cannot take that away from them. All DQing does is nullify their result relative to the other racers.

Minor punishment for a minor infraction, IMHO. As someone else said, if they cared about hardware they probably would not have done it. No biggie.

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Postby LadyV » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:58 pm

(question: what happens when a runner is disqualified? are they black listed? is their time erased?)

I would not necessarily DQ them (because they did run the race, just like everyone else)
But I would only give them a finisher's medal.
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Postby ian » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:58 pm

Jwolf wrote:
ian wrote:Other factors which might be useful to know: were the bibs labeled in any sort of way (e.g., a small sticker with the participant's name) or were they just numbers? Was the race chip timed?


I actually don't think any of these things are relevant. Either way, the rules stand. In some small races I've been in, there is no name on the bib and no chip time. In those cases it's even more important for each competitor to wear the right bib.

Of course, there are mistakes that can be made when race organizers give out bibs, etc, and these can be corrected in official results. It doesn't sound like that's what happened here.


I've seen this issue from several angles firsthand: being given a chip that was incorrectly identified in the computer database, picking up race packages for several people and having unlabeled race bibs all thrown into one bag at the package pickup, working on a finish line timing crew and dealing with the inevitable mistakes that arise. More often than not, these things happen for reasons other than negligence or scheming on the part of the competitors. I don't have enough info for the case at hand to make a firm recommendation, hence I listed a couple of things that I hope the race officials were taking into account. If a DQ is warranted, so be it, but only after the other possibilities are ruled out.

On a related issue, does every race need to have awards? A bit of post-race food, a couple of draw prizes, some approximate results, and everyone goes home happy with a lot less stress placed on the race volunteers... or are we lying about the reasons we really run?

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Postby run_longer » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:58 pm

I think they should be given a time-provided-of course, they have gender changing surgery. If they don't agree-then it's a DQ.

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Postby Mouse » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:01 pm

Mike Runs wrote:Mouse, you should have done a poll!

I'm with the DQ crowd for pretty much the same reasons.

The only thing I'll add is that rules are usually there for a reason. Whether its insurance, or to make sure everyone who's in the race has signed the waiver, or to control numbers of participants, or whatever, rules have to be followed and enforced.

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Postby VeloCarrie » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:07 pm

ian wrote:First instinct: yes to finishing medals, no to other awards.

Ian said what I would have done. They finished the race, but should not be eligible for awards, since they did not follow the rules.
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Postby cgraham » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:17 pm

They switched bibs on purpose and both ran? What possible reason could they have for doing that other than deception/screwing with the results.

Let them have their finisher medals but nothing else.
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Postby eme » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:16 pm

cgraham wrote:They switched bibs on purpose and both ran? What possible reason could they have for doing that other than deception/screwing with the results.

Let them have their finisher medals but nothing else.


This race sells out every year. After the one day name change, there is no way to change the name on the entry if you choose to give away/sell your bib.

I think that these people should have been upfront (as one person did) and said before the race "I am so and so, and I am running using so and so's bib" - that way there is no confusion.

Don't get me started on people who registered for the 10:00 am wave (most likely because the 8:30 am wave was sold out) and still ran the 8:30 am wave.

I ran the 10:00 am wave, because I missed registering for the 8:30 am wave - my fault for forgetting to hop on-line to register early enough in the day, as most runners in Winnipeg know that the first wave sells out usually by noon on the first day of registration.

I think that these were cases of someone figuring that there was no harm in letting someone else use their bib - except for the poor timing staff that have to figure this mess out (as said above, not a chip timed race).

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Postby Jwolf » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:17 pm

ian wrote:On a related issue, does every race need to have awards? A bit of post-race food, a couple of draw prizes, some approximate results, and everyone goes home happy with a lot less stress placed on the race volunteers... or are we lying about the reasons we really run?


People run for different reasons, and people enter races for different reasons, but true races are competition events.

There is a difference between a "race" and an "event". Events are usually fun runs, often not timed (although sometimes timed just for added excitment). Results are not official (or are "approximate", as you say) and often no awards are given for placings, etc. Sometimes awards might be given for fun. Terry Fox runs are "events", as are many other fun runs.

If it's a race and sanctioned by a racing organization, there are rules of the sport that should be followed to keep things credible-- otherwise it's just an event. There are also some non-sactioned races where the rules are a bit looser.

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Postby DougG » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:55 pm

DQ, no question. The rules are there and they were given a chance to fix things/
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Postby Tisha » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:04 pm

To quote Mouse:

"Well it seems that runner A (female) gave her bib to a male runner. Then the actual runner across the line B (female) is wearing her husband's bib (male).

No it was not chipped time, althou the 3 of us helping were wondering if chips would work in the cold snowy weather.
The bibs do not have the names pre printed on them, it was not a matter of mixing up her husbands, and her bib. She outrite wore his bib. The other women admitted to giving her bib to a guy."


To quote JWolf:

There is a difference between a "race" and an "event". Events are usually fun runs, often not timed (although sometimes timed just for added excitment). Results are not official (or are "approximate", as you say) and often no awards are given for placings, etc. Sometimes awards might be given for fun. Terry Fox runs are "events", as are many other fun runs.

If it's a race and sanctioned by a racing organization, there are rules of the sport that should be followed to keep things credible-- otherwise it's just an event. There are also some non-sactioned races where the rules are a bit looser.

To quote ian:

I've seen this issue from several angles firsthand: being given a chip that was incorrectly identified in the computer database, picking up race packages for several people and having unlabeled race bibs all thrown into one bag at the package pickup, working on a finish line timing crew and dealing with the inevitable mistakes that arise. More often than not, these things happen for reasons other than negligence or scheming on the part of the competitors. I don't have enough info for the case at hand to make a firm recommendation, hence I listed a couple of things that I hope the race officials were taking into account. If a DQ is warranted, so be it, but only after the other possibilities are ruled out.

On a related issue, does every race need to have awards? A bit of post-race food, a couple of draw prizes, some approximate results, and everyone goes home happy with a lot less stress placed on the race volunteers... or are we lying about the reasons we really run?

My questions and comments (my 10 cents worth!):

1. I'm a little confused with your story, Mouse. How many women are we talking about? The one who came in in the top 3, was she the one admitting to wearing a guy's bib (husband?).

2. If this is not a chipped event, then is this an "event" or a "race"? If placement really matters that much, the 'race' should have been chipped ... from the sounds of it, the Hypo is a very large event with lots of runners ... the 'running times' of people are going to be off if they are in the middle of the 'pack' at the start.

3. The bibs were not clearly marked with names. (I also have had this happen to myself and my husband.) Why would there be a $5 fee for switching the names on the bib if it was not a chipped 'race'?

4. If this is an "event" I feel she should get her placement medal as well as her finishers medal. If this is a "race sanctioned by a racing organization", I think more needs to go into the planning and preparation of it so it is 'fair' and follows the "rules of the sport". I know that it takes a lot of time and volunteers to put stickers on the bibs and that chips are sometimes a royal pain in the butt ... but 'fair' is 'fair'.

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Postby Jwolf » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:28 pm

Tisha wrote:2. If this is not a chipped event, then is this an "event" or a "race"? If placement really matters that much, the 'race' should have been chipped ... from the sounds of it, the Hypo is a very large event with lots of runners.


There are many competitive races that are not chip-timed. Chip-timing is NOT required or even an indication of a competitive event. Smaller races often don't use chips and rely on the old way of looking at bib numbers at the finish line and/or collecting the strips at the bottom of the bib and handing them in in finish order. A chip is NOT a requirement for a competitive event and was simply introduced in the sport of athletics to make large races easier to manage.

That said, perhaps this is NOT intended to be a competitive race-- but it sounds like it is.

Also, most races I've been in do NOT include my name on the bib. Sometimes there is a sticker on the bib, but not always. It's up to the participant to hold onto the bib they are given-- this is your race number that identifies you as a participant. Throwing a bunch of race numbers together into a bag would not be an excuse for mixing up bibs, especially because this could be easily sorted out at the beginning of the race. Also, from what I understood this was not a simple mixup of two bibs-- one of the people running wasn't even officially registered.
Last edited by Jwolf on Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby jgore » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:29 pm

DQ.

As one who times races - if things go well, for my living - I run into this kind of thing all the time. There are always those who decide the rules don't apply to them. Sorry, they do.

Pet peeves:

People who refuse to let us know they have changed events. I always grab the megaphone several minutes before the race starts and ask people to do this in any event with multiple races and there are always some who just don't want to be bothered.

We use a new chip system that involves putting the chip on the bib. There are instructions on the back of the bib indicating that the bib is not to crumpled, the chip not to be removed, and the bib placed on the front of the shirt. Somebody always crumples the bib, destroying the chip. Others remove the chip claiming they didn't know what it was. People exchange bibs, wear bibs on their backs, on their legs, carry them in pouches, leave them in the car or with their purse, give them to the kids to hold on the sideline. The killer is they all think it's our fault they don't have a time. The thing is that, because of our backup systems, we usually catch >90% of these people and they do get a time. It just makes more work for all concerned.

People who refuse to fill in their ages on the registration form, realise they would get age-group awards and come to us to fix the results.

Those who cross the finish line multiple times with friends in manually-timed races. We have to give times to everyone who crosses the line and are usually too busy to recognize that someone has already been through the chute. It's great that they want to go back and encourage their friends. I'm all for it. All I ask is that they don't go through the finish line again.

Many people decide they want to skip out of the chute in manually-timed races without giving us the tear-off section of the bib, screwing up everyone's results.

Bandits. 'Nuff said.

I'll stop there. Sorry about the rant.

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Postby Jwolf » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:34 pm

Thanks for the RD's perspective, Jim.

All of your peeves seem to be about people who don't really understand what is necessary to organize and properly manage a competitive race.


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