Doping relativity...

Mark.AU · Postby **Mark.AU** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:30 pm

Doping is no worse than any other form of cheating. Discuss...

Jwolf · Postby **Jwolf** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:31 pm

No worse or better, I agree.
Cheating is cheating.

La · Postby La » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:33 pm

What are some examples of other forms of cheating? I can't think of anything other than taking a taxi to the finish line. Or do you mean cheating in life, like on your taxes or going over the speed limit, etc.?

Jwolf · Postby **Jwolf** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:39 pm

La wrote:What are some examples of other forms of cheating? I can't think of anything other than taking a taxi to the finish line.

There are other ways...
using someone else's chip to qualify them for a race, cutting a course short when there aren't timing mats to check.....

Mark.AU · Postby **Mark.AU** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:53 pm

La wrote:What are some examples of other forms of cheating? I can't think of anything other than taking a taxi to the finish line. Or do you mean cheating in life, like on your taxes or going over the speed limit, etc.?

What Jenn said, plus drafting, blocking, cutting the course, using fins or floatation devices, any infraction of the rules to gain an advantage over your competitors, really.

jamix · Postby **jamix** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:04 pm

Mark 2.0 wrote:Doping is no worse than any other form of cheating. Discuss...

Mostly agree...........What Tonya Harding did has gotta be the worst form of cheating ever :lol:

HCcD · Postby **HCcD** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:06 pm

jamix wrote:
Mark 2.0 wrote:Doping is no worse than any other form of cheating. Discuss...

Mostly agree...........What Tonya Harding did has gotta be the worst form of cheating ever

Tonya did not lay one hand on Nancy Kerrigan ... :naughty:

eme · Postby **eme** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:07 pm

I think it is worse due to the fact that it can be hidden (to an extent) verses out right cheating that can be caught on video, photographed, etc.

I have a work colleague who swam in two Olympics. She ended up quitting swimming due to the pressure to dope (yes, even in Canada). We had a discussion during the last (winter) Olympics and she firmly believed that very few people were racing/training 'clean'.

She knew of cases where people (no necessarily Canadian athletes) would dope during training and then go 'clean' in time to test clean at the Olympics. Basically, the advantage was still there (stronger/better endurance) but the substance was out of their system.

She also stated that she could watch the Olympics and appreciate what people were doing with their bodies, but could not believe that they were all 'clean'.

jamix · Postby **jamix** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:18 pm

eme...........sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

HCcD wrote:
jamix wrote:
Mark 2.0 wrote:Doping is no worse than any other form of cheating. Discuss...

Mostly agree...........What Tonya Harding did has gotta be the worst form of cheating ever

Tonya did not lay one hand on Nancy Kerrigan ...

Oops yes thats true, my bad........But her husband is a bad man :naughty:

Jwolf · Postby **Jwolf** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:22 pm

eme wrote:She knew of cases where people (no necessarily Canadian athletes) would dope during training and then go 'clean' in time to test clean at the Olympics. Basically, the advantage was still there (stronger/better endurance) but the substance was out of their system.

Top people in the sports are also random tested in off-season/training season now...

jamix · Postby **jamix** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:28 pm

Jwolf wrote:
eme wrote:She knew of cases where people (no necessarily Canadian athletes) would dope during training and then go 'clean' in time to test clean at the Olympics. Basically, the advantage was still there (stronger/better endurance) but the substance was out of their system.

Top people in the sports are also random tested in off-season/training season now...

this

Postby **turd ferguson** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:35 pm

I would argue that doping is the least-bad form of cheating, because everybody does it.

Taking a taxi to the finish is worse because you get an unfair advantage on your competitors. Doping merely levels the playing field.

If everybody is doping, it might be illegal but its not unfair.

Jwolf · Postby **Jwolf** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:36 pm

turd ferguson wrote:I would argue that doping is the least-bad form of cheating, because everybody does it.

Taking a taxi to the finish is worse because you get an unfair advantage on your competitors. Doping merely levels the playing field.

If everybody is doping, it might be illegal but its not unfair.

everybody? I don't think it's that systematic in all sports.

But even if that's true it's still unfair because it disadvantages those that choose to stay clean (and don't compete).

jonovision_man · Postby **jonovision_man** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:50 pm

turd ferguson wrote:I would argue that doping is the least-bad form of cheating, because everybody does it.

At least that's what dopers tell themselves. Meanwhile those who refuse to be part of the "everybody" don't ever get to be part of the elite of the sport. That's fair how?

Cheating is cheating.

jono

eme · Postby **eme** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:56 pm

jamix wrote:
Jwolf wrote:
eme wrote:She knew of cases where people (no necessarily Canadian athletes) would dope during training and then go 'clean' in time to test clean at the Olympics. Basically, the advantage was still there (stronger/better endurance) but the substance was out of their system.

Top people in the sports are also random tested in off-season/training season now...

this

She was tested in the off-season/training season. Any other country could 'challenge' someone to get tested. For a while, she wanted to stop answering her phone - since she was getting tested so often.

Mark.AU · Postby **Mark.AU** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:59 pm

If it's all the same (cheating, that is) - and I think it is - why are the penalties so disparate, and why so much more stigma to doping?

For sure, part of the reasons for penalty difference is the lingering effects of doping compared to other forms of cheating - the advantage gained is long term as much as it is instant. However, if I cut a course or draft a significant portion of a bike leg I'll gain just as much advantage and only risk a two minute penalty.

In terms of stigma, it's not even close - and I can't think of a reason why.

Postby **turd ferguson** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:03 pm

jonovision_man wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:I would argue that doping is the least-bad form of cheating, because everybody does it.

At least that's what dopers tell themselves. Meanwhile those who refuse to be part of the "everybody" don't ever get to be part of the elite of the sport. That's fair how?

Cheating is cheating.

jono

This is about the relativity of doping to other forms of cheating. I'm not arguing it should be allowed or that its okay.

La · Postby La » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:12 pm

Mark 2.0 wrote:If it's all the same (cheating, that is) - and I think it is - why are the penalties so disparate, and why so much more stigma to doping?

For sure, part of the reasons for penalty difference is the lingering effects of doping compared to other forms of cheating - the advantage gained is long term as much as it is instant. However, if I cut a course or draft a significant portion of a bike leg I'll gain just as much advantage and only risk a two minute penalty.

In terms of stigma, it's not even close - and I can't think of a reason why.

Maybe because of the cost associated with testing to catch people who are doping/cheating? Doping is long-term, systematic cheating (affects you in training as well as in racing); whereas drafting is a one-time offence that is punished at the time it occurs in a race. Nobody cares if you "cheat" during training (because essentially you are only cheating yourself).

But Jennifer's example of wearing someone else's chip to qualify them for a race is another good example. If caught, I think both cheaters should get a suspension for a period of time (though how would you enforce that with all the regional and international races?).

Postby **turd ferguson** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:19 pm

Mark 2.0 wrote:If it's all the same (cheating, that is) - and I think it is - why are the penalties so disparate, and why so much more stigma to doping?

For sure, part of the reasons for penalty difference is the lingering effects of doping compared to other forms of cheating - the advantage gained is long term as much as it is instant. However, if I cut a course or draft a significant portion of a bike leg I'll gain just as much advantage and only risk a two minute penalty.

In terms of stigma, it's not even close - and I can't think of a reason why.

The usual answer to questions like this is "because lesser penalties didn't work". Why is the penalty for hopping on a train $250? Because $125 didn't work.

Why is there more stigma? Because drugs are bad. Phelps was suspended six months for belong photographed taking bong rips. The USADA is funded by the same puritanical agency trying to stamp out medical marijuana.

Jwolf · Postby **Jwolf** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:46 pm

What is interesting is that the use of drugs and other "potions" has been around for a long time, and was originally banned to protect the safety of the athletes.

Here's a really good article summarizing the history and modern concerns:

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-n ... 84335.html

Robinandamelia · Postby **Robinandamelia** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:33 pm

Then there's those that try to win by trying to sway who they play (and throw matches)....badminton anyone!

I agree, cheating is cheating....

HCcD · Postby **HCcD** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:39 pm

What about the judging events? Creativity, artistic, etc., are all subjective ... and, remember the whole block judging/favoritism, re: pro/con countries ??

Sir Crashalot · Postby **Sir Crashalot** » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:09 pm

It's all about the money....

dgrant · Postby **dgrant** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:43 am

It's way worse, because it kills people.

If I'm a third baseman juiced on steroids and keeping my roster spot because of the associated performance boost, I'm making every young third baseman have to juice to compete with me for my job. (Or think they have to.) With the steroid era in baseball only recently ending, we'll start seeing a lot of stars dropping dead in their mid-40s. I bet every one of them would say they only did it to keep up and keep their job.

Stealing signs to keep up, or videotaping opponents' practices to keep up, or cutting a racecourse to keep up... none of those things are lethal.

scrumhalfgirl · Postby **scrumhalfgirl** » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:48 am

dgrant wrote:It's way worse, because it kills people.

If I'm a third baseman juiced on steroids and keeping my roster spot because of the associated performance boost, I'm making every young third baseman have to juice to compete with me for my job. (Or think they have to.) With the steroid era in baseball only recently ending, we'll start seeing a lot of stars dropping dead in their mid-40s. I bet every one of them would say they only did it to keep up and keep their job.

Stealing signs to keep up, or videotaping opponents' practices to keep up, or cutting a racecourse to keep up... none of those things are lethal.

Yes - very good point.