The silence is deafening

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Dstew
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The silence is deafening

Postby Dstew » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:28 pm

First this story:

http://www.runnersworld.com/health/keny ... gn-coaches

Then more:

http://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runne ... ng-problem

http://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runne ... oping-bans

http://www.runnersworld.com/rt-columns/drugs-running

Lance takes drugs, wins because of that but there is the collateral benefit of some money for cancer and the cry from this site with few exceptions is to tie him to an ant hill.

Oscar may have an advantage due to his blades and is hailed as a role model for the disabled and he is accused of murder and again this site wants him to be immediately taken into a field the a bullet in the back of his head and all of his athletic accomplishments removed or dismissed.

Where literally millions of dollars are at stake and the self absorbed Kenyans who are only looking out after their own self interest are starting to get caught taking performance enhancing drugs in order to succeed and not a word from this site. Interesting and maybe even a little telling?

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MichaelMc
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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby MichaelMc » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:51 pm

Telling in what way?

If Gebrselaisse had been caught it would not be quiet. It gets headlines and comment when it is a household name: had you ever heard of the people caught?

"Self absorbed Kenyans"?

Perhaps you can explain your rant or accusation, I can't figure out whether your point is racial, distance running, nationalistic or...?

Lance was guilty as hell, Oscar's story is ridiculous and I believe he is a murderer until I hear something new there. I also believe that some runners in Kenya are cheating just like some are everywhere else, including Canada.

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ian
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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby ian » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:14 pm

MichaelMc wrote:Lance was guilty as hell, Oscar's story is ridiculous and I believe he is a murderer until I hear something new there. I also believe that some runners in Kenya are cheating just like some are everywhere else, including Canada.

Agreed. I would think that marathon runners would be particularly likely to get away with doping because of the extended training camps away from competition and the mosaic of indepedent races. Other than the Olympics, do any other marathons require drug testing in advance of the event? It's a chicken and egg situation right now: there's not a lot of outcry for cleaning up a sport which has a fairly good reputation and it's hard for the sport to ruin its fairly good reputation without the kind of testing which might expose a cheater. Incidentally, I'd put hockey, tennis, and basketball in that same category right now.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby Jwolf » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:41 pm

ian wrote:I would think that marathon runners would be particularly likely to get away with doping because of the extended training camps away from competition and the mosaic of independent races. Other than the Olympics, do any other marathons require drug testing in advance of the event?

Before and after for the Olympics.

World-class marathoning seems to be moving in that direction, too:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013 ... hon-majors
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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby canalrunner » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:08 am

Thanks for posting this. I had read speculation but it was all a bit vague. Will be interesting to see how widespread this becomes and whether it is also runners from other countries doing this. The lack of name recogniton probably limits comment. I am loath to say "the Kenyans are doping" when it may be a few. I just don't know so rather than commenting I am mostly watching and reading. As with Lance, a large part of me hopes this is not true. The myth and the natural grace of African elite runner is part of marathon culture. It would be sad if that myth was 'supplemented' in any way.

But yes, shame on you Kenyan runners who are doping.
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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby jonovision_man » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:57 am

Dstew wrote:Lance takes drugs, wins because of that but there is the collateral benefit of some money for cancer and the cry from this site with few exceptions is to tie him to an ant hill.


Lance won the Tour de France seven times while doping, compelled others on his team to dope, hid doping through bribery and intimidation, lied under oath about doping, profiteered from the charity he created... etc.

3 no-name guys get banned and you want an equivalent level of outrage?

Unlikely. There are many no-name athletes banned for drug use, in cycling it's a weekly occurance.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby DougG » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:52 pm

Lance did what he did, and is paying for it. Many people want him punished severely (and so on). His actions for the most part had to do directly with his sport, and thus are directly tied to his records. Personally my opinion of him has not changed at al. Oscar P. did something infinitely worse - allegedly. It had nothing to do with him as an athlete, so his records should not be affected at all (unless somehow there is a tie in). If guilty he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. My opinion of him as an athlete has not changed at all (actually I had little or no opinion of him). As a human being, that is another story.
O.J. Simpson was an amazing football player. His actions after his career don't change that.

IMO Lance & Oscar P. are totally different situations.
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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby jonovision_man » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:01 pm

Jwolf wrote:
ian wrote:I would think that marathon runners would be particularly likely to get away with doping because of the extended training camps away from competition and the mosaic of independent races. Other than the Olympics, do any other marathons require drug testing in advance of the event?

Before and after for the Olympics.

World-class marathoning seems to be moving in that direction, too:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013 ... hon-majors


Very lax compared to cycling, and we all know what went down there.

Probably best to assume everyone is juiced, and be surprised when they're clean.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby Jpod » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:24 pm

I think it's sad that athletics has reached this point. I'm not judging anyone in particular, but when I think of my own kids growing up, wanting to be an athlete, and seeing a lot of their role models "cheating"... In a way, I guess the expectations of society might have been too high. People aren't evolving, so they turned to science to give them an edge. That's not a very good attitude for kids to see, in my opinion. I'd rather my kids see hard work, dedication, and great training.

I think it's wrong for ANYONE to cheat. But when peoples heroes turn out to be cheaters... well that's especially upsetting. I don't think it's necessarily "fair" for humanity to be vultures about it, but then, it wasn't "fair" for them to cheat and lie their way to the top either... Sad situations all around.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby jonovision_man » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:00 pm

Jpod wrote:I think it's sad that athletics has reached this point. I'm not judging anyone in particular, but when I think of my own kids growing up, wanting to be an athlete, and seeing a lot of their role models "cheating"... In a way, I guess the expectations of society might have been too high. People aren't evolving, so they turned to science to give them an edge. That's not a very good attitude for kids to see, in my opinion. I'd rather my kids see hard work, dedication, and great training.


No question that even with the cheating and chemical assistance, the hard work and dedication is there. Ben Johnson spoke about that in 9.79*... in fact it sounds a lot more challenging with the drugs, instead of being able to work out once a day, you can hit it hard multiple times a day!

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby Jpod » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:24 pm

Oh yes, I didn't mean to diminish that! I meant, hard work and dedication alone, without drugs and blood doping on top of it.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby jonovision_man » Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:41 pm

Jpod wrote:Oh yes, I didn't mean to diminish that! I meant, hard work and dedication alone, without drugs and blood doping on top of it.


Agreed. I honestly wouldn't want my kids to pursue athletics beyond high school, certainly not to the extremes that go beyond a healthy lifestyle.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby Dstew » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:09 am

jonovision_man wrote:
Dstew wrote:Lance takes drugs, wins because of that but there is the collateral benefit of some money for cancer and the cry from this site with few exceptions is to tie him to an ant hill.


Lance won the Tour de France seven times while doping, compelled others on his team to dope, hid doping through bribery and intimidation, lied under oath about doping, profiteered from the charity he created... etc.

3 no-name guys get banned and you want an equivalent level of outrage?

Unlikely. There are many no-name athletes banned for drug use, in cycling it's a weekly occurance.

jono


The point was there NO reaction nor a single post whereas there have been almost endless posts about Lance or Oscar or doctors who cheat in running and how none of these are "real" runners because runner's are above such things. Never mind the dismissal and disappointment directed at some who dared to defend the good deeds of the accused and guilty. So I was merely speculating as to why the Kenyans or shall we say successful marathoners seemed to have escaped the moral and self righteous indignation of this site. I had to wonder why these heroes and idols of the hard core running community seemed to get a pass on this site and it was merely a matter of intellectual curiosity.

My hypothesis was that they run, make a lot of money and do not really give back to society and therefore they get a pass ironically because they do not do any good and thus do not get any main stream press. I suppose your answer seems to support that conclusion. I was also wondering why those who are held up a role models have their accomplishments that are not directly related to their crimes ripped away or apart because of a black and white moral scale that you cheat running, you cheat in life that seems to be applied to many here and yet there is an almost tact approval through silence if one is not held as role model in the mainstream media. Interesting to me how this moral code is applied or in this case not applied. Again, Lance does not tip well and it is reported in some small paper and there will be a hundred responses on this site but numerous stories about marathoners arise and not a single word - fascinating.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby MichaelMc » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:06 am

The sky in your world is an interesting colour, Dstew.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby MrBond » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:36 am

'Creative rules interpretation' is human nature.

If somebody, somewhere thinks they can get a leg up by getting away with something WITHOUT GETTING CAUGHT then they are going to try.
And its all okay until they do get caught, then righteous indignation ensues.
Why is everyone surprised ?

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby jonovision_man » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:38 am

Dstew wrote: . Again, Lance does not tip well and it is reported in some small paper and there will be a hundred responses on this site but numerous stories about marathoners arise and not a single word - fascinating.


Lance tips very well - just ask the UCI.

I hadn't even heard this story about the 3 Kenyans until I read your post. I'm not surprised and it's certainly a black eye for the sport, a bigger story may be brewing as it did in cycling for years before people saw it for what it was. We'll see.

BTW - I think you're the only person left on earth who thinks lance is being treated unfairly... other than Lance himself.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby HCcD » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:46 am

Perhaps, a positive step to change .....
2012 Boston Marathon Winner, Wesley Korir, newest member of Kenyan Parliament

Image

Photo: The film tRANscend

Recently it was announced that Wesley Korir, 2012 John Hancock Boston Marathon winner, has taken the MP-seat for Cherangany-county in Kenya as a member of parliament. According to Kenyan political source, Sylvia Chelimo, Wesley Korir won an independent seat, as many feel Korir will serve a beneficial role in providing a rebuilding for the country of Kenya.

After listening to Kenyans' reactions on BBC radio, some feel that they need someone who take to action in a timely manner. Korir is a candidate who will be able to quickly benefit many in the country. “Despite whoever wins the election, we must remain united as one solid country of Kenya, at the end of the day we need to move forward,” said positive vibes from voters previous to finding out the election results.

Korir will be making his way over to the U.S. soon as he looks to defend his marathon title in Boston. Wesley stormed his way down the Boston course and overcame the unusually warm New England heat (85F) to win in at time of 2:12:40. He ran his marathon personal best in Chicago in 2012, where he finished 5th in 2:06:13. Look for Wesley Korir in a few weeks where he will toe the line on Marathon Monday against many other great marathoners.

Wesley will be heavily contested by dozens of others with a field of Olympians, champions of World Marathon Majors, Chicago, NYC, Boston and various global marathon champions from Amsterdam, Barcelona, Brussels, Cologne, Daegu, Dubai, Eindhoven, Frankfurt, Johannesburg, Hamburg, Houston, Istanbul, Krakow, L.A., Milan, Rome, St. Paul, Soweto, Toronto, Turin and past U.S. Olympic Trials/Championships.
http://www.flotrack.org/article/18939
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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby Dstew » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:40 pm

jonovision_man wrote:
Dstew wrote: . .

BTW - I think you're the only person left on earth who thinks lance is being treated unfairly... other than Lance himself.

jono
jono



From a logical and rational perspective, I see no problem with thinking Lance is a douche bag but at the same time acknowledging the good he did. Assign blame and punishment where it is due but credit where it is due as well. $500,0000,000 is a number that I and many more do not dismiss as easily as you have done.

My position has always been clear. Ban him from any professional event. Do not record his time but if his name can raise more money for charity, then why not use him as he used others? At this juncture it would be the equivalent of a side show and so if it does good, it does good.

Why are you so obsessed with Lance that you do take the time to educate yourself about what is going on in the world? It took me less than five minutes to find all of the articles about cheating by marathoners who are not main stream role models and I find it odd that someone that has such strong and firm positions about cheating, Lance with drugs, Oscar with the blades that this story was missed by you. If there was an article by the Orlando Times about Lance cutting off a little old lady in a Grocery store, you would be demanding that they cut off his foot. And this story is out there and nothing and that is just an observation.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby Dstew » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:41 pm

MichaelMc wrote:The sky in your world is an interesting colour, Dstew.


It is when you are not drinking the cool aid.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby jonovision_man » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:03 pm

Dstew wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:
Dstew wrote: . .

BTW - I think you're the only person left on earth who thinks lance is being treated unfairly... other than Lance himself.

jono
jono



From a logical and rational perspective, I see no problem with thinking Lance is a douche bag but at the same time acknowledging the good he did. Assign blame and punishment where it is due but credit where it is due as well. $500,0000,000 is a number that I and many more do not dismiss as easily as you have done.

My position has always been clear. Ban him from any professional event. Do not record his time but if his name can raise more money for charity, then why not use him as he used others? At this juncture it would be the equivalent of a side show and so if it does good, it does good.


I tend to take a more principled stand regarding ill- gotten gains. And I will not give kudos to a guy who raised money through a lie, all the while profiting from his "charity" work.

If (when?) all the stories come out about Livestrong lobbying for Lance, or the charity money that went to private planes, etc will you be as chuffed about Lances "charity" work??

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby Dstew » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:46 am

jonovision_man wrote:
Dstew wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:
Dstew wrote: . .

BTW - I think you're the only person left on earth who thinks lance is being treated unfairly... other than Lance himself.

jono
jono



From a logical and rational perspective, I see no problem with thinking Lance is a douche bag but at the same time acknowledging the good he did. Assign blame and punishment where it is due but credit where it is due as well. $500,0000,000 is a number that I and many more do not dismiss as easily as you have done.

My position has always been clear. Ban him from any professional event. Do not record his time but if his name can raise more money for charity, then why not use him as he used others? At this juncture it would be the equivalent of a side show and so if it does good, it does good.


I tend to take a more principled stand regarding ill- gotten gains. And I will not give kudos to a guy who raised money through a lie, all the while profiting from his "charity" work.

If (when?) all the stories come out about Livestrong lobbying for Lance, or the charity money that went to private planes, etc will you be as chuffed about Lances "charity" work??

jono


Lance profited greatly from this "charity" work but the objective fact is that without his name, the charity does not do nearly as well. One could argue that without Lance, there is no Livestrong so one can add to the list of rotten things he has done is that he took from a charity but regardless, there was even one person on this site who benefited and could not have cared less.

And back to your main argument, the philosophical issue I have with some on this site, is that there is an inconsistent and emotionally based application of very strict moral standards. To be specific, it appears some marathoners took drugs, won the race and hence have received ill gotten gains but because they did so quietly and without public fan fare they have not incurred your wrath or the wrath of others. But if they then parlay that into more money but at the same time they are helping raise money that was only raised because of their name, that deserves your wrath. With all due respect, that seems to be backwards.

To be specific, your general paradigm is shared by others and that lead to several who share your general outlook to berate and belittle B Man who supported Lance's fund raising efforts in addition to completely dismissing the money and good raised for whatever reason by Lance. But some guy takes drugs like Lance does, wins the race just like Lance does but sulks off and under the radar and does not raise a cent unlike Lance who raised $500,000,000, that is not worthy of a post? The money raised does not justify or excuse what Lance did on the bike. Given the level he did that, a lifetime ban is well deserved. And I saw the interview and it is a fair comment to say that he is a a##hole but he is a a##hole who did raise a ton of money and he deserve a little credit for that. And in my mind, at least he did raise that money for whatever reason as opposed to the cheats do not even bother to anything to make amends or mitigate their crimes.

Does not the cheat who does not raise a penny for charity deserve at least as much scorn as those who at least do some good? I lost track of the number of times you guys would justify your excesses with "protect the integrity of the sport" argument but that only seems to apply if someone is a main stream role model. Screw the integrity of the sport and do so under the radar, too much trouble to bother writing about that seems to be the message you are sending.

I get bothered by self righteous indignation and I do appreciate the irony of that statement by people who do not either recognize their own faults and actions are far from the perfection they seem to demand and/or they pick and choose to express that indignation. Or at least be honest about it: "I hate Lance, he was a hero of mine and so my attacks may be veiled with integrity of the sport and grand and noble moral arguments but in reality, it is merely a personal vendetta. Therefore when some runner I have never heard about cheats, no big deal." To me, that is perfectly legitimate and a fair comment and the other stuff is bs.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby jonovision_man » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:52 am

You want me to give credit to Lance for "charity" work he profitted from, that he used to boost his image and hide his cheating, which profitted from a lie.

That is not going to happen.

I have used the analogy before of the Columbian drug lord who builds schools and hospitals to keep the locals happy so he can do his misdeeds without trouble. Do you similarly demand they get credit?

Frankly, I don't care if you find some inconsistency in how I react to Lance vs others. He did FAR more damage to the sport and his lies and transgression went well beyond "just" cheating. That is why he gets my focus over others.

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby jgore » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:12 am

Dstew wrote:I get bothered by self righteous indignation...


Ahem, ahem...

I have not piped up in any of these discussions over the years because, quite frankly, I don't care about what Lance or the Kenyans or any of the others have done. However, this statement has drawn me out. The only reason this thread exists is to satisfy your self-righteous (Yes, it does require a hyphen.) indignation and your desire to revisit the tired, old Lance discussion. To start a thread by berating everyone on this board for not commenting on a story is obviously designed to pick a fight. It's nothing more than troll behaviour. Why do you find it so difficult to just accept the fact that some people may disagree with you and leave it at that?

I realize this post will probably be removed. I just had to get that off my chest.

Have a great day, folks. :D

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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby HCcD » Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:27 am

jgore wrote:
Dstew wrote:I get bothered by self righteous indignation...


Ahem, ahem...

I have not piped up in any of these discussions over the years because, quite frankly, I don't care about what Lance or the Kenyans or any of the others have done. However, this statement has drawn me out. The only reason this thread exists is to satisfy your self-righteous (Yes, it does require a hyphen.) indignation and your desire to revisit the tired, old Lance discussion. To start a thread by berating everyone on this board for not commenting on a story is obviously designed to pick a fight. It's nothing more than troll behaviour. Why do you find it so difficult to just accept the fact that some people may disagree with you and leave it at that?

I realize this post will probably be removed. I just had to get that off my chest.

Have a great day, folks. :D


ditto +1

NIcely said, Jim ....

I believe had the original post/thread had indicated and focussed on the fact that 3 Kenyans suspended for positive EPO, etc, a discussion may have ensued naturally and positively ... In fact, the original poster could have started the thread with this breaking story, himself, instead of berating the rest of the board for not having posted the story, don't you think?

Everyday, someone, somewhere and in some sport will likely be tested positive for some sort of PEDs, in general, and are we suppose to post every single story? :shifty: :oops:

Back to the original programming, it will be interesting as the reports and investigations come to light as to how far reaching that EPO and doping have Kenyans, and the other marathon power house countries ...
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Re: The silence is deafening

Postby Nicholas » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:33 am

jgore wrote:It's nothing more than troll behaviour.

Certainly looks that way.....time to move on.
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