no more ice and Ibu?

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no more ice and Ibu?

Postby ultraslacker » Mon May 04, 2015 9:27 am

I don't think this one has been posted here yet:
http://stoneathleticmedicine.com/2013/1 ... he-answer/

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no more ice and Ibu?

Postby Jwolf » Mon May 04, 2015 9:54 am

Maybe not that one but this point has been discussed a lot. :(
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby ultraslacker » Mon May 04, 2015 10:11 am

has it? I've missed it.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby Spirit Unleashed » Mon May 04, 2015 11:29 am

The bit about light exercise as a repair stimulus is new to me.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby La » Mon May 04, 2015 11:59 am

People don't take NSAIDs and use ice because they think inflammation is bad; they do it because inflammation hurts and they want to relieve their pain!
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby canalrunner » Mon May 04, 2015 2:32 pm

La wrote:People don't take NSAIDs and use ice because they think inflammation is bad; they do it because inflammation hurts and they want to relieve their pain!


+ 1. An ice cold beer (for the carbs of course), low resistance/high revolution cycling, ice cold bath or shower, and topical analgesic . If that doesn't work I like to report the first step a couple of times.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby Jwolf » Mon May 04, 2015 3:44 pm

I thought people took NSAIDs because the thought used to be that you needed to reduce the inflammation to help the healing.

Last time we discussed this there was talk about how internal inflammation (sterile inflammation) does not have a protective effect and is therefore not needed for injury recovery. But the jury still seems to be out.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby Jwolf » Mon May 04, 2015 5:19 pm

From the article holly posted: equating the inflammation process with fever is an interesting one-- some people think that you shouldn't bring down fever with Advil or Aspirin because fever is the body's way of fighting off infection. However, proponents of fever-reducing medication assure us that while the medication reduces the fever (and the potentially dangerous effects of it), it does not reduce the body's infection-fighting ability.

Here is one of the articles I remember discussing before, which talks about the difference between sterile and non-sterile inflammation:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/hea ... e21363646/

As for the beneficial effects of icing-- my doctor described it to me once that icing and then rewarming helps encourage blood flow to return to the injured site, thus accelerating healing. Anyway, seems to work for me.
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no more ice and Ibu?

Postby marymac442 » Mon May 04, 2015 8:41 pm

La wrote:People don't take NSAIDs and use ice because they think inflammation is bad; they do it because inflammation hurts and they want to relieve their pain!


+1
I also like the judicial ingestion of fermented beverages as pain reliever.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby Pat29 » Wed May 06, 2015 9:34 am

I like canalrunner's approach.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby ultraslacker » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:18 pm

Have been icing on and off this weekend. It doesn't seem to make a difference on the swelling, but it does feel nice. So I guess that is what matters right now lol!


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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby drghfx » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:17 pm

I think you alternate hot and cold. Cold to keep down the swelling and inflammation and heat to expand the capillaries to get more blood flow for healing.

...and beer is good for treatment AND prevention.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby ultraslacker » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:03 pm

I don't drink beer! But wine and icecream are also therapeutic!

Alternating hot and cold would require getting up and walking to the kitchen twice as often. :lol: So I'm just doing cold, and then only periodically (as often as I feel like getting up and walking to the kitchen...).
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby jonovision_man » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:40 am

I love this quote - always thought it odd that we'd try suppress the body's natural response...

Editor in Chief of The Physician and Sports Medicine Journal (Dr. Nick DiNubile) once posed this question: “Seriously, do you honestly believe that your body’s natural inflammatory response is a mistake?”


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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby ian » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:43 pm

jonovision_man wrote:I love this quote - always thought it odd that we'd try suppress the body's natural response...

Editor in Chief of The Physician and Sports Medicine Journal (Dr. Nick DiNubile) once posed this question: “Seriously, do you honestly believe that your body’s natural inflammatory response is a mistake?”


jono

On the other hand, my body's natural response to getting tired from running is to stop running. Competitive racing (and the associated training) is at some level an unnatural activity for which we shouldn't necessarily assume the body is optimally adapted.

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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby canalrunner » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:53 pm

jonovision_man wrote:I love this quote - always thought it odd that we'd try suppress the body's natural response...

Editor in Chief of The Physician and Sports Medicine Journal (Dr. Nick DiNubile) once posed this question: “Seriously, do you honestly believe that your body’s natural inflammatory response is a mistake?”


jono


Interesting quote from a doctor. I suppose "don't prescribe anything for anything" if we carry that to extreme. Hate to think what that would do to doctor's incomes, drug company profits and perhaps even someone's health. Personally I don't mind taking some nature little helpers like analgesic rub, Ibuprofen, compression socks and of course beer. Had my best marathon recovery everthis summer when I did very cold pools (+7 degrees) and then hot pools (+42 degrees) and repeated that on the afternoon of the marathon.....along with my beer. No issues with stairs or stiffness the next day, very little lactic acid tightness. Ran easily on day 2.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby turd ferguson » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:54 pm

ian wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:I love this quote - always thought it odd that we'd try suppress the body's natural response...

Editor in Chief of The Physician and Sports Medicine Journal (Dr. Nick DiNubile) once posed this question: “Seriously, do you honestly believe that your body’s natural inflammatory response is a mistake?”


jono

On the other hand, my body's natural response to getting tired from running is to stop running. Competitive racing (and the associated training) is at some level an unnatural activity for which we shouldn't necessarily assume the body is optimally adapted.


True of most sports. The winner is often the person best able to suppress their natural responses to pain, tiredness, inflammation.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby ultraslacker » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:43 pm

which is why I don't win races, or even run competitively. :lol:

I'm a big sucky baby when I get hurt.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby jonovision_man » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:25 pm

canalrunner wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:I love this quote - always thought it odd that we'd try suppress the body's natural response...

Editor in Chief of The Physician and Sports Medicine Journal (Dr. Nick DiNubile) once posed this question: “Seriously, do you honestly believe that your body’s natural inflammatory response is a mistake?”


jono


Interesting quote from a doctor. I suppose "don't prescribe anything for anything" if we carry that to extreme. Hate to think what that would do to doctor's incomes, drug company profits and perhaps even someone's health.


I suppose, although a lot of prescriptions are more to do with complimenting the body's response, not shutting it down. Except when it's mis-firing, like with allergies and such. I wouldn't think of the normal inflammatory response to exercise as a mis-fire.

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no more ice and Ibu?

Postby Jwolf » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:20 pm

jonovision_man wrote:I love this quote - always thought it odd that we'd try suppress the body's natural response...

Editor in Chief of The Physician and Sports Medicine Journal (Dr. Nick DiNubile) once posed this question: “Seriously, do you honestly believe that your body’s natural inflammatory response is a mistake?”


jono


I don't think it's quite so obvious. There are many healing responses our bodies have that can cause other problems, so we treat those. For example the body's histamine response to an allergen or irritant- tie body makes your throat swell to keep out the foreign substance but it also blocks oxygen from getting in and CO2 from getting out. If you just let the body do its own thing you'd die waiting for it to protect you from the foreign substance. So we give drugs to block the histamine response.
An extreme example yes- but the thinking behind suppressing inflammation is that it can cause worse problems while it is trying to heal other problems.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby turd ferguson » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:19 am

jonovision_man wrote:
canalrunner wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:I love this quote - always thought it odd that we'd try suppress the body's natural response...

Editor in Chief of The Physician and Sports Medicine Journal (Dr. Nick DiNubile) once posed this question: “Seriously, do you honestly believe that your body’s natural inflammatory response is a mistake?”


jono


Interesting quote from a doctor. I suppose "don't prescribe anything for anything" if we carry that to extreme. Hate to think what that would do to doctor's incomes, drug company profits and perhaps even someone's health.


I suppose, although a lot of prescriptions are more to do with complimenting the body's response, not shutting it down. Except when it's mis-firing, like with allergies and such. I wouldn't think of the normal inflammatory response to exercise as a mis-fire.

jono


And a lot of life is about counteracting our bodies responses when its not convenient for our lives. My body is telling me this morning that I need to get some more sleep and I'm responding with coffee, not sleep. Later on I may take a headache pill instead of going home to bed.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby ultraslacker » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:27 am

that's a choice though, and not a healthy one. With an injury, I have a choice of how to treat it (with ice/physio/whatever). So if one way is going to provide a better recovery then I'd choose that. :/ Since the jury seems to still be out, I have been icing but not obsessively... just when it feels sore/stiff.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby La » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:41 am

turd ferguson wrote: And a lot of life is about counteracting our bodies responses when its not convenient for our lives. My body is telling me this morning that I need to get some more sleep and I'm responding with coffee, not sleep. Later on I may take a headache pill instead of going home to bed.

Exactly. And athletes are horrible about this; we're always trying to speed up the healing process because we have an event coming up.

It's like the difference between Advil's ads (take our cold medicine and you can maintain your normal life) and Benelyn's ads (take some Benelyn, stay home from work, get well, THEN go back to work). It implies that real people don't have the luxury of taking the time to heal.
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby turd ferguson » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:10 am

La wrote:
turd ferguson wrote: And a lot of life is about counteracting our bodies responses when its not convenient for our lives. My body is telling me this morning that I need to get some more sleep and I'm responding with coffee, not sleep. Later on I may take a headache pill instead of going home to bed.

Exactly. And athletes are horrible about this; we're always trying to speed up the healing process because we have an event coming up.

It's like the difference between Advil's ads (take our cold medicine and you can maintain your normal life) and Benelyn's ads (take some Benelyn, stay home from work, get well, THEN go back to work). It implies that real people don't have the luxury of taking the time to heal.


I'm reminded about a quote in a book I read about baseball - maybe it was Ball Four - on the difference between 'hurt' and 'injured'. It was along the lines of baseball in September - everybody is hurt, everybody has aches and pains. 'Hurt' you play through. 'Injured' you don't.

The Benelyn ads, I have no idea. Whether someone should go to work or not when they have a sniffle is a question for another thread :)
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Re: no more ice and Ibu?

Postby jonovision_man » Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:51 am

Jwolf wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:I love this quote - always thought it odd that we'd try suppress the body's natural response...

Editor in Chief of The Physician and Sports Medicine Journal (Dr. Nick DiNubile) once posed this question: “Seriously, do you honestly believe that your body’s natural inflammatory response is a mistake?”


jono


I don't think it's quite so obvious. There are many healing responses our bodies have that can cause other problems, so we treat those. For example the body's histamine response to an allergen or irritant- tie body makes your throat swell to keep out the foreign substance but it also blocks oxygen from getting in and CO2 from getting out. If you just let the body do its own thing you'd die waiting for it to protect you from the foreign substance. So we give drugs to block the histamine response.
An extreme example yes- but the thinking behind suppressing inflammation is that it can cause worse problems while it is trying to heal other problems.


But that's someone with allergies... aka a faulty immune system over-reacting to something. Is your body faulty when it causes the typical inflammation humans get after prolonged exercise? I don't think so, not for most people anyway.

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