A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby ian » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:44 pm

Jwolf wrote:What bugs me about Sharapova is that she's trying to play the innocent victim, when really she got caught trying to get around the system. People seem to be believing her "it was just an honest mistake" excuse, though.

I believe her, basically because it's more plausible to me that she (along with her team) was negligent in keeping up with the changes to the regulations than it is that she was knowingly trying to cheat and not expecting to be caught. The risk vs. reward just wouldn't make it worth it, especially at this stage of her career (where she may never win another significant tournament but still had hundreds of millions of dollars in earnings available with an unsullied reputation). An analogy in our world might be our university/institutional calendars: they are constantly changing in minor ways and it's a student's responsibility to abide by the guidelines within but nobody reads these things cover to cover and it's inevitable that certain changes will catch certain people by surprise. By the way, I'm not suggesting that Sharapova should escape a serious punishment.

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby canalrunner » Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:13 pm

ian wrote:
Jwolf wrote:What bugs me about Sharapova is that she's trying to play the innocent victim, when really she got caught trying to get around the system. People seem to be believing her "it was just an honest mistake" excuse, though.

I believe her, basically because it's more plausible to me that she (along with her team) was negligent in keeping up with the changes to the regulations than it is that she was knowingly trying to cheat and not expecting to be caught. The risk vs. reward just wouldn't make it worth it, especially at this stage of her career (where she may never win another significant tournament but still had hundreds of millions of dollars in earnings available with an unsullied reputation). An analogy in our world might be our university/institutional calendars: they are constantly changing in minor ways and it's a student's responsibility to abide by the guidelines within but nobody reads these things cover to cover and it's inevitable that certain changes will catch certain people by surprise. By the way, I'm not suggesting that Sharapova should escape a serious punishment.


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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby canalrunner » Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:13 pm

ian wrote:
Jwolf wrote:What bugs me about Sharapova is that she's trying to play the innocent victim, when really she got caught trying to get around the system. People seem to be believing her "it was just an honest mistake" excuse, though.

I believe her, basically because it's more plausible to me that she (along with her team) was negligent in keeping up with the changes to the regulations than it is that she was knowingly trying to cheat and not expecting to be caught. The risk vs. reward just wouldn't make it worth it, especially at this stage of her career (where she may never win another significant tournament but still had hundreds of millions of dollars in earnings available with an unsullied reputation). An analogy in our world might be our university/institutional calendars: they are constantly changing in minor ways and it's a student's responsibility to abide by the guidelines within but nobody reads these things cover to cover and it's inevitable that certain changes will catch certain people by surprise. By the way, I'm not suggesting that Sharapova should escape a serious punishment.


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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby jonovision_man » Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:12 am

ian wrote:
Jwolf wrote:What bugs me about Sharapova is that she's trying to play the innocent victim, when really she got caught trying to get around the system. People seem to be believing her "it was just an honest mistake" excuse, though.

I believe her, basically because it's more plausible to me that she (along with her team) was negligent in keeping up with the changes to the regulations than it is that she was knowingly trying to cheat and not expecting to be caught. The risk vs. reward just wouldn't make it worth it, especially at this stage of her career (where she may never win another significant tournament but still had hundreds of millions of dollars in earnings available with an unsullied reputation). An analogy in our world might be our university/institutional calendars: they are constantly changing in minor ways and it's a student's responsibility to abide by the guidelines within but nobody reads these things cover to cover and it's inevitable that certain changes will catch certain people by surprise. By the way, I'm not suggesting that Sharapova should escape a serious punishment.


There are really two parts to her story, though.

1) She took the drug for a medical condition, not for performance enhancement
2) She didn't realized it had been banned and kept taking it illegally, leading to the positive test.

I'm inclined to believe (2), but not (1).

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby Robinandamelia » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:02 am

According to the information I read, the drug she took is for short term use. Maybe for a few weeks, a few times a year as needed. She's been taking it for "10 years" which is odd.

She says:
The 28-year-old, who splits time between her homes in Bradenton, Fla., and Manhattan Beach, Calif., insisted she had been prescribed mildronate to treat chronic illnesses, a magnesium deficiency and family history of diabetes.

The drug:
Meldonium or mildronate, also known as mildronāts, Quaterine, MET-88, and THP (for its chemical name, see below) is a limited-market cardiac drug manufactured by Grindeks, a Latvian pharmaceutical company, and distributed online in Eastern European countries as an anti-ischemia medication.[1] It is not approved by the US Food and Drug Administration, and is not legally available in the United States.[citation needed] Since January 1, 2016, it has been on the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) list of substances banned from use by athletes;[2] some athletes are known to have been using it before it was banned.[3]

When I googled, there's a lot of information dating back at least a year on how the drug was being looked at by the WADA for potential banning. So even though it was only 3 months, they ought to have known for some time. Plus the mere fact that she was using the drug for longer than it's intended time frame and for what I can see, reasons other than what's listed "magnesium and diabetes" seems odd.

Just reading about the drug itself makes me suspect of the intent on the usage. It's not mainstream, not even available in USA....hmmm.

So I think that at that level of sport, these kinds of mistakes are not ok....what's good for one is good for all and she's no exception. Break the rules, out you go!

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby Robinandamelia » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:02 am

Robinandamelia wrote:According to the information I read, the drug she took is for short term use. Maybe for a few weeks, a few times a year as needed. She's been taking it for "10 years" which is odd.

She says:
The 28-year-old, who splits time between her homes in Bradenton, Fla., and Manhattan Beach, Calif., insisted she had been prescribed mildronate to treat chronic illnesses, a magnesium deficiency and family history of diabetes.

Prescribed by who? If she lives in the USA what doctor has been prescribing as according to the note below, the drug is NOT available in the USA.....odd no?

The drug:
Meldonium or mildronate, also known as mildronāts, Quaterine, MET-88, and THP (for its chemical name, see below) is a limited-market cardiac drug manufactured by Grindeks, a Latvian pharmaceutical company, and distributed online in Eastern European countries as an anti-ischemia medication.[1] It is not approved by the US Food and Drug Administration, and is not legally available in the United States.[citation needed] Since January 1, 2016, it has been on the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) list of substances banned from use by athletes;[2] some athletes are known to have been using it before it was banned.[3]

When I googled, there's a lot of information dating back at least a year on how the drug was being looked at by the WADA for potential banning. So even though it was only 3 months, they ought to have known for some time. Plus the mere fact that she was using the drug for longer than it's intended time frame and for what I can see, reasons other than what's listed "magnesium and diabetes" seems odd.

Just reading about the drug itself makes me suspect of the intent on the usage. It's not mainstream, not even available in USA....hmmm.

So I think that at that level of sport, these kinds of mistakes are not ok....what's good for one is good for all and she's no exception. Break the rules, out you go!

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby Spirit Unleashed » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:17 am

ian wrote:The latest development:
Maria Sharapova was warned at least five times by tennis authorities that the drug meldonium was being added to the World Anti-Doping Agency’s (WADA) list of banned substances on Jan. 1, according to the UK Times.

Sharapova, 28, claims that she did not stop taking the drug, which she says she has been taking for nearly a decade for various health reasons, after failing to open an email listing the drugs added to the banned list for 2016. However, professional female tennis players were reportedly warned five times in 2015, three times by the International Tennis Federation and twice by the Women’s Tennis Association, that meldonium would appear on that list.


As someone who spends hours each day among millennials, I think I see the issue: OMG, Y didnt U txt it 2 me?


She should have got that warning.period. People like her have staffs of coaches/trainers/managers to help them also.
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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby ian » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:25 am

From what I've read, this drug is available without prescription in Russia, so her "misuse" might have been akin to the way some of us disregard some of the printed guidelines for OTC products like cold medications and sleep aids. Also, I'd be interested to know if she has had a doctor on her payroll, as this could easily lead to creative prescriptions that would seldom be authorized for others, often to ill effect (e.g., Elvis and Michael Jackson).

Again, I'm just brainstorming here for alternative explanations, as it seems strange that if someone were knowingly cheating for ten years, they wouldn't also be vigilant about not getting caught.

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby jonovision_man » Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:31 am

Spirit wrote:She should have got that warning.period. People like her have staffs of coaches/trainers/managers to help them also.


... and if you were taking something legitimate, they would certainly be in the loop.

If you were skirting the rules to gain a performance advantage, you might not tell your American coaches/trainers/managers what your Russian counterparts are feeding you on the sly...

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby jonovision_man » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:05 pm

So if there's any doubt that Meldonium use is rampant in Russian sports... how about a bunch of teenagers getting popped and having to withdraw from a hockey tournament? :lol:

http://deadspin.com/reports-entire-russ ... 1769366600

The IIHF World U18 Championships begin in Grand Forks, N.D., next week, and the Russian team was set to fly out tomorrow. Today it was revealed that the head coach has been fired and the entire roster will be replaced because too many players tested positive for the recently banned substance Meldonium


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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby canalrunner » Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:52 am

Perhaps it is a Russian plague and they are using meldonium to fight the same scouring disease that affected Martina. :lol: Should we organize a fundraising race to help them?

So clearly Martina et al had found a PED that was legal and then became illegal, and then for some bizarre reason kept taking it, begging to be caught. Not the sharpest tools in the shed.
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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby Jwolf » Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:46 pm

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby jonovision_man » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:11 pm

Jwolf wrote:Latest development:

http://www.thescore.com/wta/news/1006676


Is it too late for her to change her excuse? :) "I stopped taking it! I don't know what happened!"

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby canalrunner » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:21 pm

jonovision_man wrote:
Jwolf wrote:Latest development:

http://www.thescore.com/wta/news/1006676


Is it too late for her to change her excuse? :) "I stopped taking it! I don't know what happened!"

jono


Wasn't her excuse, " I needed it for a medical condition. I wasn't aware I was supposed to stop taking it" rather than "I used it for a medical condition, I continued taking it because it was a legal PED (and it tastes good). I wasn't aware it was made illegal. I have now stopped taking it but it will take awhile for it to clear my system. I don't know how long. I was getting bored with tennis anyways".
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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby jonovision_man » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:22 am

Two year ban:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/36482288

She's 29 which is pretty long in the tooth for tennis... but never say never, she could still return I guess?

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby ian » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:58 pm

jonovision_man wrote:Two year ban:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/36482288

She's 29 which is pretty long in the tooth for tennis... but never say never, she could still return I guess?

jono

A number of high-profile women have returned to professional tennis after lengthy absences and done well, so it's not physically impossible that Sharapova could also return, especially if she can get her shoulder fixed while she's gone. On the other hand, the previous comebacks typically involved players who hadn't yet won as much as they "should have" and didn't have tons of endorsements. Sharapova won enough and made enough money that I don't see the motivation for a comeback unless she can figure out how to hit a two-handed backhand without keeping her middle fingers on the racket.

Meanwhile, I'm sure other athletes took note that Maria's transparency since the initial test still got her the biggest sanction in the sport's history and therefore in the future we'll be hearing more of the lame "it was tainted meat" or "I must have been sabotaged" or "I have a chimeral twin" excuses.

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby turd ferguson » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:42 pm

ian wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:Two year ban:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/36482288

She's 29 which is pretty long in the tooth for tennis... but never say never, she could still return I guess?

jono

A number of high-profile women have returned to professional tennis after lengthy absences and done well, so it's not physically impossible that Sharapova could also return, especially if she can get her shoulder fixed while she's gone. On the other hand, the previous comebacks typically involved players who hadn't yet won as much as they "should have" and didn't have tons of endorsements. Sharapova won enough and made enough money that I don't see the motivation for a comeback unless she can figure out how to hit a two-handed backhand without keeping her middle fingers on the racket.

Meanwhile, I'm sure other athletes took note that Maria's transparency since the initial test still got her the biggest sanction in the sport's history and therefore in the future we'll be hearing more of the lame "it was tainted meat" or "I must have been sabotaged" or "I have a chimeral twin" excuses.


Martina Hingis is ranked #1 in doubles right now.
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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby canalrunner » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:18 pm

turd ferguson wrote:
ian wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:Two year ban:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/36482288

She's 29 which is pretty long in the tooth for tennis... but never say never, she could still return I guess?

jono

A number of high-profile women have returned to professional tennis after lengthy absences and done well, so it's not physically impossible that Sharapova could also return, especially if she can get her shoulder fixed while she's gone. On the other hand, the previous comebacks typically involved players who hadn't yet won as much as they "should have" and didn't have tons of endorsements. Sharapova won enough and made enough money that I don't see the motivation for a comeback unless she can figure out how to hit a two-handed backhand without keeping her middle fingers on the racket.

Meanwhile, I'm sure other athletes took note that Maria's transparency since the initial test still got her the biggest sanction in the sport's history and therefore in the future we'll be hearing more of the lame "it was tainted meat" or "I must have been sabotaged" or "I have a chimeral twin" excuses.


Martina Hingis is ranked #1 in doubles right now.

Wow, kudos for that fact.
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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby turd ferguson » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:19 pm

canalrunner wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:
ian wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:Two year ban:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/36482288

She's 29 which is pretty long in the tooth for tennis... but never say never, she could still return I guess?

jono

A number of high-profile women have returned to professional tennis after lengthy absences and done well, so it's not physically impossible that Sharapova could also return, especially if she can get her shoulder fixed while she's gone. On the other hand, the previous comebacks typically involved players who hadn't yet won as much as they "should have" and didn't have tons of endorsements. Sharapova won enough and made enough money that I don't see the motivation for a comeback unless she can figure out how to hit a two-handed backhand without keeping her middle fingers on the racket.

Meanwhile, I'm sure other athletes took note that Maria's transparency since the initial test still got her the biggest sanction in the sport's history and therefore in the future we'll be hearing more of the lame "it was tainted meat" or "I must have been sabotaged" or "I have a chimeral twin" excuses.


Martina Hingis is ranked #1 in doubles right now.

Wow, kudos for that fact.


I'm not that engrossed in the world of tennis (especially doubles tennis) but it was mentioned last night on a podcast I listen to.
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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby canalrunner » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:47 am

Darn. Was hoping you know who was #1 in mixed doubles. :D
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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby jonovision_man » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:43 am

turd ferguson wrote:
ian wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:Two year ban:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/36482288

She's 29 which is pretty long in the tooth for tennis... but never say never, she could still return I guess?

jono

A number of high-profile women have returned to professional tennis after lengthy absences and done well, so it's not physically impossible that Sharapova could also return, especially if she can get her shoulder fixed while she's gone. On the other hand, the previous comebacks typically involved players who hadn't yet won as much as they "should have" and didn't have tons of endorsements. Sharapova won enough and made enough money that I don't see the motivation for a comeback unless she can figure out how to hit a two-handed backhand without keeping her middle fingers on the racket.

Meanwhile, I'm sure other athletes took note that Maria's transparency since the initial test still got her the biggest sanction in the sport's history and therefore in the future we'll be hearing more of the lame "it was tainted meat" or "I must have been sabotaged" or "I have a chimeral twin" excuses.


Martina Hingis is ranked #1 in doubles right now.


Isn't doubles where competitive players go when they're not competitive anymore?

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby ian » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:32 am

jonovision_man wrote:Isn't doubles where competitive players go when they're not competitive anymore?

In Hingis' case, pretty much (I'd figure her only to be about a top-20 singles player right now if she chose to do that). Most top singles players retire due to injuries or lack of drive for the grind of being on tour, so doubles is rarely the fallback. Most top doubles players tend to be specialists, in many cases unable to maintain a credible singles ranking.

The players I had in mind who made successful returns to singles in women's tennis after long breaks were Justine Henin, Kim Clijsters, and Kimiko Date (who went on to play at a high level into her forties).

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby ian » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:41 pm

Update: The Court of Arbitration for Sport sided with Sharapova's appeal and reduced the ban from 2 years to 15 months, meaning that she will be eligible to return in April. For more details, see http://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/17711028/maria-sharapova-meldonium-suspension-reduced-15-months

Of particular interest,
"The panel wishes to point out that the case it heard ... was not about an athlete who cheated," the panel wrote. "It was only about the degree of fault that can be imputed to a player for her failure to make sure that the substance contained in the product she has been legally taking over a long period, and for most of the time under the basis of a doctor's prescription, remained in compliance."


Either way, it's a substantial suspension, but I think I like the slight leniency insofar that it makes a small distinction between those who are transparent, cooperative, and apologetic when caught, and those who are obstructive, evasive, and belligerent. A sort of plea bargain, if you like.

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby jonovision_man » Tue Oct 04, 2016 3:15 pm

15 months vs 18 months... I guess those 3 months are important though since a lot of tennis is played in them.

Also whether she was "transparent" or not depends on whether you believe her IMO ridiculous story that she wasn't taking the drug for performance enhancement. Clearly she was - although she may have intended to remain compliant and missed the deadline for it.

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Re: A Clean Apology: That's Dope!?!

Postby ian » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:22 pm

jonovision_man wrote:15 months vs 18 months... I guess those 3 months are important though since a lot of tennis is played in them.

Also whether she was "transparent" or not depends on whether you believe her IMO ridiculous story that she wasn't taking the drug for performance enhancement. Clearly she was - although she may have intended to remain compliant and missed the deadline for it.

jono

15 vs. 24, i.e. a 9 month reduction. In particular, those 9 months include almost every important tournament in the year (French Open, Wimbledon, US Open, WTA championships).

Of course the drug was for performance enhancement. By definition, any prescribed medication is performance enhancing in some way and it's just a (usually hypothetical) question of whether the performance is enhanced beyond the level it would have reached without both the condition and the medication.


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