Contemplating Dirty Girls 2011....(because I'm certifiable)

[PinkLady]

I blame Ultraslacker for even thinking this is remotely reasonable and not ENTIRELY insane.

I am feeling the pull and yearning to move into the ultrarace direction. Not ready yet for at least the foreseeable future for a 'true' ultra, but I'm told if I do a 'short' race at an ultra event, and stay to cheer on everyone else, I will be hooked.

I was also told that when I saw the event I had to do, I would know. Kind of like a wedding dress, huh?

So......

I really really really like the sounds of the Dirty Girl Run event. 'Only' the 30K for next year, if I do it. Now, 30K wouldn't be unreasonable for me, except, well......I've never run on trails before.

Is this a non-insane event for a n00b? Is the terrain really hard? I've never run on trails before, and now that winter is almost upon us I probably won't be able to until spring. I'd also still want to keep training for my fall full marathon goal, so if I did Dirty Girls 30K would I be able to train for both at the same time?

I'm a sucker for girley-girl events though, and this seems like it would be FUN. Do a lot of maniacs go to Dirty Girls? I'm hoping that I can room and/or travel with someone to cut the costs.

HELP - someone slap me upside the head and talk me out of this nonsense!!

[Habs4ever]

I'm an enabler and I say do it.

[ultraslacker]

talk you out of it? why would we talk you out of it? just wait, we'll have you up to 50k in no time. ;)

[PinkLady]

Heehehee....well, yes, I knew very well I was preaching to the choir in this forum....



Maybe I should have posted in the Training forum instead. Over there they actually worry about little things like, oh, overtraining....stress fractures....overuse injuries.....

Actually, I really want to know for a trail newbie if this race isn't too technical. I don't mind muddy, and I don't mind hills (but I do HATE running downhill, ouch), but I wouldn't want something with, say, a lot of obstacles to climb over or rivers to wade.

Also curious if there's a big RM contingent (from NCM area?) so I'd have travel company and/or lodging companions.

Man, you people are all crazy, and I'm joining you........

[PinkLady]

OMG, and I thought you guys were enablers. My husband is worse than all of you!!

I just mentioned I was thinking of this little trail race next summer.....and about how I hate camping, and a lot of people camp on the grounds. So he suggests we take the kids and go camping so I can do this race.

Then he asks what race I'm doing, and I say the 30K, and how there's also the bigger races too. So then he asks how the race works.....and we get to discussing how many minimum loops you have to do for, say, the 6 hour event.

I tell him 3, and hubby then says well, you might as well do the 6 hour, since the minimum is 30K anyways - so get more bang for your buck and do the 6 hour!



Good lord, I was expecting hubby to talk some SENSE into me!!

[ultraslacker]

perfect!!

I can't give any feedback on the course, but there are others here who have run it, and I'm sure they'll chime in!

[dgrant]

Dirty Girls would be a very good choice terrain-wise. It's good, honest trail racing - no crazy water crossings or punitive climbs that turn it into a powerhike. A fair number of tripping hazards, but nothing outrageous. The race director Diane does a great job with her events.

One thing to keep in mind if you hate camping is it's literally just setting up tents in a field at Mansfield Outdoor Centre. It's not an actual campground with any amenities.

Maybe I should have posted in the Training forum instead. Over there they actually worry about little things like, oh, overtraining....stress fractures....overuse injuries.....

Ultras are still a tiny segment of the trail running community. Most of us still worry about that stuff.

[ultraslacker]

hard to get a stress fracture on a trail (not impossible, I suppose, but you're far more likely to acquire one on the road). Overuse injuries are of course possible but only if you... you know, over-use something. Considering that Dirty Girls isn't until August and you're already in the 20-25k range in your long runs, you have a lot of time to build as gradually and as gently as you need, whether you decide to go for 30k or more. :)

[PinkLady]

Dirty Girls would be a very good choice terrain-wise. It's good, honest trail racing - no crazy water crossings or punitive climbs that turn it into a powerhike. A fair number of tripping hazards, but nothing outrageous. The race director Diane does a great job with her events.

One thing to keep in mind if you hate camping is it's literally just setting up tents in a field at Mansfield Outdoor Centre. It's not an actual campground with any amenities.

Oh good. The course sounds perfect for a newbie on the trails.....more like something a little more natural than the bikepath through the woods in my suburb, rather than an ad in the MEC catalog.

Actually, I hate camping because, well...bugs, and worst of all - OUTHOUSES. YUCK. I'm more of a camp-in-a-trailer type. DH is more of the tent type. Well....guess I'd better compromise huh?

hard to get a stress fracture on a trail (not impossible, I suppose, but you're far more likely to acquire one on the road). Overuse injuries are of course possible but only if you... you know, over-use something. Considering that Dirty Girls isn't until August and you're already in the 20-25k range in your long runs, you have a lot of time to build as gradually and as gently as you need, whether you decide to go for 30k or more.

True, dat. I'm not worried about the distance, as much as the distance on trails. I was planning to go for a full marathon in fall anyways, so by August 30K will just be a long run, really. I suppose it'll just be not as fast to go on trails, as opposed to dangerous.

I'm finding it's working better to just go with the flow and listen to my body. I know it's madness on paper to go from a 14km long run last Sunday to 19km today, but my body and mind is so eager for it that I was looking forward to go to bed last night just so I could get up to go run! I figure if I listen to my body and back off when I'm fatigued, these rather big jumps in mileage are within my limits.

Btw, I've heard that I shouldn't do longer-than-30K runs on a regular basis because they are very damaging to the body. What has been your experience?

[ultraslacker]

Btw, I've heard that I shouldn't do longer-than-30K runs on a regular basis because they are very damaging to the body. What has been your experience?

most marathon programs go to 32k, and the idea is (apparently) that the risks of going beyond that outweigh the benefits.

I would say that for you, for now, 30-32k is plenty. Even training for a 50k, it's not necessary to go higher.

However, a lot of ultra runners who are doing longer distances will go over that. If your body is used to the distance there are fewer risks involved. There are lots of different ways to do it, and different ways to break it up so that you don't have super long runs. My longest training run is 50k, and I don't think I'd ever have a reason to go over that. Some people prefer to break it up into double long runs (long run two days in a row), as you can get more total distance that way and your legs learn to run tired!

I don't know the science of it, but as with everything, long-term adaptation is what makes the difference. :)

[UltraQueenga]

Lots of great advice here already. Go with what feels ok for you and your body.

Dirty Girls is a great event and I agree with your husband, go for the 6hr instead of the 30k. More trails for your buck. Plus, it's a mixed event, with lots of different distances and types of runners participating. You get to see a full spectrum of trail and ultrarunning, which is inspiring.

Not sure what your possibilities are, but if you can, hit the trails and do a lot of your training on them. Even doing your road marathon training on softer trails, grassy areas, packed gravel paths will result in faster times on the road. Running in the snow and slush is also great training if you're trying to get your legs used to off-road running. Sure, the training and the times will be slower, but the end results better: faster times on road, fewer overuse injuries (trail running keep more muscles engaged) and a better feel for trails. Just be careful, you might get hooked.

While DG is a great trail event, a lot of first-timers complain about the occasional roots and stumps. If you do a lot of your training off road you learn to pick up your feet more than in road running and you won't even notice them.

One last note, if you're looking for another summer trail event, perhaps closer to you, have a look at the Limberlost Challenge, which is also part of the Ontario Ultra/Trail Series. The event takes place near Huntsville in mid July. The course is so very beautiful, but a bit more technical than Dirty Girls. You can camp in the area or stay in Huntsville or even rent one of the cabins in Limberlost Forest. Highly recommend this event as well. Have a look at the photos from this year's race.

Good luck with your training!

[PinkLady]

Thanks, Ultraslacker & UltraQueenga!

Long term gains is definitely the philosophy I'm sticking with. Well, that and the occasional stupid increase, . I know it takes time to build up, but I remember not too long ago that a 14K LSD sounded like a huge amount. Now, it's not enough. I'm definitely planning to be consistent and persistent, and I'm getting better at being flexible and go with what my body says.

Today, it says "Hey stupid, going from a 14k LSD last week to 19k was a lot, you fool!"

UltraQueenga - it's interesting that you've experienced better road times with more trail running. I was under the impression that it tended to go the other way, that more trail running ended up in slower road racing times unless you kept up with the road running speed stuff. Mentally I know I'll love trail running far more. I can't wait until spring to get out there. I hear trail running is a great all-over workout and good for your core, which is something I'm really happy about since I love core-work.

I get the feeling that I'll soon be getting much more experienced running in slush and snow very soon!! It's getting cold around here!

[UltraQueenga]

UltraQueenga - it's interesting that you've experienced better road times with more trail running. I was under the impression that it tended to go the other way, that more trail running ended up in slower road racing times unless you kept up with the road running speed stuff.

Last time I was training for a road marathon (2008) I did a lot of my faster runs on softer surfaces (trails, gravel, packed dirt paths, grass) and noticed I was overall faster on roads. I haven't trained for road races since and have gone into longer distances, so my overall times have gone down. But I don't miss the road pounding and the sore joints after a road race.

[Chainsaw Baby]

To get some exposure to Trail/Ultra, pop by Creemore on November 27 and pace Ultraqueen for a loop or 2 (10.6K loop). It is mostly road and gentle trail, so you won't be shell-shocked, but it does have the odd technical bit (beaver dam) and you will gain first hand experience of what the far-left ultra crazies look like in a race!

Creemore Horizontal 100 Miler:

www.ultrasignup.com

[BJH]

UltraQueenga - it's interesting that you've experienced better road times with more trail running. I was under the impression that it tended to go the other way, that more trail running ended up in slower road racing times unless you kept up with the road running speed stuff.

Last time I was training for a road marathon (2008) I did a lot of my faster runs on softer surfaces (trails, gravel, packed dirt paths, grass) and noticed I was overall faster on roads. I haven't trained for road races since and have gone into longer distances, so my overall times have gone down. But I don't miss the road pounding and the sore joints after a road race.

My guess would be that UltraQueenga's faster road times also corresponded to an overall increase in mileage. The increased mileage can be easier on softer surfaces.

Given the same time on your feet, I don't think you would see much of a difference between road and trails if you aren't doing speed work. But increasing to 300-400km months are going to make you faster, period.

On a training note, I didn't go beyond 32k in any single run while training for 50k, BUT, those 32k runs were done the day after a 20k run. I found that combination had a huge effect.

[PinkLady]

CB - thanks!! I will have to see if I can squeeze in a trip at the end of the month.....Creemore is west of Toronto though, isn't it?

My guess would be that UltraQueenga's faster road times also corresponded to an overall increase in mileage. The increased mileage can be easier on softer surfaces.

Given the same time on your feet, I don't think you would see much of a difference between road and trails if you aren't doing speed work. But increasing to 300-400km months are going to make you faster, period.

On a training note, I didn't go beyond 32k in any single run while training for 50k, BUT, those 32k runs were done the day after a 20k run. I found that combination had a huge effect.

Good point! It is rather amazing how much of a difference consistency and time can make. I have to remember that it's not complicated, and just plugging away over time can make huge improvements. Good thing, since most speedwork scares me, but I can chug along like no one's business.

I've seen the idea of running back to back LSD's on many ultra plans. It's something that I'll probably do once I get enough mileage to try it. I'm definitely getting strong signals about when my body's reached it's current limit for long runs.....I'm rarely sore after an LSD, but when I am I know that is my current limit, and not go beyond it for at least 2 weeks until that distance feels 'easy'.

[UltraQueenga]

My guess would be that UltraQueenga's faster road times also corresponded to an overall increase in mileage. The increased mileage can be easier on softer surfaces.

Given the same time on your feet, I don't think you would see much of a difference between road and trails if you aren't doing speed work. But increasing to 300-400km months are going to make you faster, period.

True. If you want to run faster, train faster. If you want to run further, train further. Simple.

One more note on my famous "speed gain in road races from training on softer surfaces": true that my overall mileage was increasing those days, but I did many shorter fast runs because that summer I had little time to do anything other than 1hr runs during the week and then races on the weekends.
Those weekday runs became my "angry workouts" where I'd run as fast as I could for an hour, including a short warm-up.
Glad those days are over.

[RonPerth]

Funny I should drop around and catch this thread.
Here's a link to my pictures from this years race:
http://picasaweb.google.com/ronfrancisc ... Girls2010#
Its a nice place to run.
Ron

[PinkLady]

Funny I should drop around and catch this thread.
Here's a link to my pictures from this years race:
http://picasaweb.google.com/ronfrancisc ... Girls2010#
Its a nice place to run.
Ron

Thanks for the pics, Ron! It looks like a pretty good course for a trail-n00b....at the very least, I don't see any creek crossings or big fallen trees across the path.