your favourite track workouts--let's catalogue them!

[Nicholas]

We're back to talking about the dreaded grey zone(s) again. Those runs that make you "hard as nails" but are not the most efficient at improving your VO2Max or Lactate Threshold. But then some of them are just fun (in a strange way) and don't have to be the most efficient if you don't care about that....at least, not for that run.

[Garrett]

when I see people who like to just putter along on long runs jump into 'killer" workouts that may be useful for topping up the anaerobic capacity of an 800 meter runner I have to shake my head.

wups

[Jwolf]

That's why it's hard to recommend "speed workouts" out of context of a person's background and ability.

The shorter stuff is good when you haven't been doing speed work in a while to help re-train leg turnouver, but the 30-60 sec reps that I talked about aren't intended to get into anaerobic capacity. Some people do try to push too hard, though.

[ultraslacker]

You need some sort of plan rather than just leaping from one interesting workout to the next on a whim.

Actually, since my goals in running involve having fun and challenging myself, leaping from one interesting workout to the next might be exactly what I need. Thankfully, what I don't need is anyone's approval. :)

[ultraslacker]

That's why it's hard to recommend "speed workouts" out of context of a person's background and ability.

No one was asking for targeted recommendations. I was simply looking for ideas.

[dgrant]

I found Pat's simple workouts definitely helped me out and were fun too. 5 x 1000m = a good huff and puff at paces that are relevant on raceday.

[QuickChick]

You need some sort of plan rather than just leaping from one interesting workout to the next on a whim.

Actually, since my goals in running involve having fun and challenging myself, leaping from one interesting workout to the next might be exactly what I need. Thankfully, what I don't need is anyone's approval.

Certainly not, and ideas are definitely good. However what is also definitely good is to hear some advice from those who know a lot more than you or I do about speed. I'm thankful for the ideas that Pat and other very experienced runners offer. I'd hate to think I was working hard but spinning my wheels at something that wasn't going to actually make me faster or fitter.

[Jo-Jo]

The most simple workouts will get the job done. I like stuff like 2x3000, 3x2000, 4x mile and 5 x1000. When you do workouts like that you are learning race pace and stride. Those are most useful when you can already at least run your goal race distance at a strong effort. I really don't see the point in worrying about workouts until you reach that level.
when I see people who like to just putter along on long runs jump into 'killer" workouts that may be useful for topping up the anaerobic capacity of an 800 meter runner I have to shake my head.
it is very easy to do stuff that makes you feel like you are really working hard but it is rarely in the right way. Short sprints with short recoveries initially work on a pace you're never going to see in a race and degenerate into a pace that gives the illusion of going fast but probably isn't.
Notice the biggest improvements from the people who just grind away with the basics.
You need some sort of plan rather than just leaping from one interesting workout to the next on a whim.

I've always followed a plan put together by a coach and I do agree that you can't just leap from whatever suits your fancy to the next one that does. Well actually lots of people can and do and that's fine for them. I'm not sure I'm one of those people.

I've only been on a track about 4 times in the past couple years. Most of my faster workouts are done on the road. In the winter I'll use the TM.

Holly you were looking for ideas. Here are a couple I do.

Kilometre repeats..usually at 5 km race pace.

I have a 2km loop on a very quiet street (in a fancy subdivision...almost no traffic). I'll do this loop at 10km race pace. I've actually done this loop 5km times once in a while and held my own "private" 10km race...once I even set up a water station for myself.

One I did with a group a few times this summer: 1600 metre loop around RMC. Done 3 or 4 times. The trick was that you had to do the next loop faster than the last one. So you needed to pace yourself properly. About a 90 second rest between loops.

I often do strides at the end of a run...not to work on speed...but to work on form.

[Marg]

There are interesting ideas thrown out here but would be even more helpful if the recovery was also included, i.e. If you are doing 400m intervals, how long (time or distance) is optimum rest in between intervals.

thanks for knowledge imparted so far!

[ultraslacker]

You need some sort of plan rather than just leaping from one interesting workout to the next on a whim.

Actually, since my goals in running involve having fun and challenging myself, leaping from one interesting workout to the next might be exactly what I need. Thankfully, what I don't need is anyone's approval. :)

Certainly not, and ideas are definitely good. However what is also definitely good is to hear some advice from those who know a lot more than you or I do about speed. I'm thankful for the ideas that Pat and other very experienced runners offer. I'd hate to think I was working hard but spinning my wheels at something that wasn't going to actually make me faster or fitter.

Right, but Pat's posts seemed to be saying, "don't bother", which is not helpful.

[MichaelMc]

The question can easily be taken different ways: what is YOUR FAVORITE track workout (lets make a list of interesting workouts), what are really good track workouts in general, what is a good track workout for a person in "my" position (the OP)...

As usual on forums, we all rush off with different interpretations and then start to debate them

I LIKE the Billat workouts, but I only use them in particular parts of anybody's program. The 3 minute/3 minute one is advanced enough I doubt there are 5 runners on here who'd get the most out of it, and I'm probably not one of them.

I'm a fan of speedwork in general, but the BEST workout varies from runner to runner, and seasonally for most runners. If we wanted we could make various "what are good VO2 max workout", "what are good LT workouts" posts, and still we'd need to specify what level runner we're talking about.

As a laundry list of workouts I enjoyed this post: interesting to see what people like and do. As for whether I think people are doing the most effective workouts... well, no one asked me that

[Jwolf]

There are interesting ideas thrown out here but would be even more helpful if the recovery was also included, i.e. If you are doing 400m intervals, how long (time or distance) is optimum rest in between intervals.

And what the purpose of the workout is... and when it's appropriate to do it, and how much is appropriate.

I tried to describe all that in my earlier post.

[ultraslacker]

The question can easily be taken different ways: what is YOUR FAVORITE track workout (lets make a list of interesting workouts), what are really good track workouts in general, what is a good track workout for a person in "my" position (the OP)...

As usual on forums, we all rush off with different interpretations and then start to debate them :lol:

I LIKE the Billat workouts, but I only use them in particular parts of anybody's program. The 3 minute/3 minute one is advanced enough I doubt there are 5 runners on here who'd get the most out of it, and I'm probably not one of them.

I'm a fan of speedwork in general, but the BEST workout varies from runner to runner, and seasonally for most runners. If we wanted we could make various "what are good VO2 max workout", "what are good LT workouts" posts, and still we'd need to specify what level runner we're talking about.

As a laundry list of workouts I enjoyed this post: interesting to see what people like and do. As for whether I think people are doing the most effective workouts... well, no one asked me that

My original intent was the laundry list, though of course it's natural to want to apply it to my own situation. Due to the variance of opinions and the profusion of unsolicited advice on fora such as ours, sometimes if I have a specific question about my specific situation, I'll ask one or two people privately for their advice rather than the whole board. :P

In any case, my track workouts right now consist of running around the track slowly and doing the odd lap slightly less slowly... but I do want to build the habit of going to the track once a week so that when I am stronger, I'll be ready to do more. One of my main goals right now is to build more consistency and better training habits so that I'll be better prepared for the distances that I love. :)

Definitely interested in seeing the recovery times for some of the pyramids that people offered up earlier.

[La]

You need some sort of plan rather than just leaping from one interesting workout to the next on a whim.

Actually, since my goals in running involve having fun and challenging myself, leaping from one interesting workout to the next might be exactly what I need. Thankfully, what I don't need is anyone's approval.

Right, but Pat's posts seemed to be saying, "don't bother", which is not helpful.

I didn't read it that way. I agree with MichaelMc's comments about the difference between "what's fun" and "what's effective" (depending on your goals). If your goal is to keep things interesting, challenge yourself a bit, teach yourself to run faster more often, etc. then I don't think it really matters what types of track/speed workouts you do.

What I'd like to know (because I really can't remember) is what types of adaptations are created when you do each of the following. What are you training your body to do?:
1. Hard intervals with minimal recovery (30-60 seconds)
2. Hard intervals with equal time/distance recovery (e.g., Yasso 800s)
3. Hard intervals with full recovery (or is that really the same as #2?)

[La]

There are interesting ideas thrown out here but would be even more helpful if the recovery was also included, i.e. If you are doing 400m intervals, how long (time or distance) is optimum rest in between intervals.

And what the purpose of the workout is... and when it's appropriate to do it, and how much is appropriate.

Yes, I would find that helpful, too.

[turd ferguson]

You need some sort of plan rather than just leaping from one interesting workout to the next on a whim.

Right, but Pat's posts seemed to be saying, "don't bother", which is not helpful.

I didn't read it that way at all. In fact, the comment kind of spoke to me because I'm guilty of not having a plan - I do vague "speedwork" but sometimes its pyramids, sometimes fartlek, sometimes Yassos, and often I don't decide until I'm actually running them.

[bruyere]

You need some sort of plan rather than just leaping from one interesting workout to the next on a whim.

Right, but Pat's posts seemed to be saying, "don't bother", which is not helpful.

I didn't read it that way at all. In fact, the comment kind of spoke to me because I'm guilty of not having a plan - I do vague "speedwork" but sometimes its pyramids, sometimes fartlek, sometimes Yassos, and often I don't decide until I'm actually running them.

Heh. I was like that. Though it was pretty much always just fartlek as I really didn't know -- or bother to think about -- what I was doing. Now, I'm doing very regimented workouts that are planned for me, but I don't actually know *why* I'm doing them...

[Jwolf]

What I'd like to know (because I really can't remember) is what types of adaptations are created when you do each of the following. What are you training your body to do?:

1. Hard intervals with minimal recovery (30-60 seconds)
2. Hard intervals with equal time/distance recovery (e.g., Yasso 800s)
3. Hard intervals with full recovery (or is that really the same as #2?)

Here's the gist of it by my understanding. (It's not just the recovery but also the length of the interval that determines the purpose of the workout):

Long intervals (8-12 minute) with short recover (usually 60-90 sec) are tempo intervals or sometimes called "cruise intervals", i.e., a LT workout. Some people do longer tempo intervals as well, up to 20 minutes but less of them. Pace is usually about 10K to half-marathon pace.

Hard intervals of 3-4 minutes at about 5K pace with about 75% recovery by time are VO2max workouts. This should be enough recovery to the point where you don't slow down with subsequent intervals. (Yassos are a sort of variation of the 3-4 minute intervals, but are slower with longer recovery time. There is some debate over whether they actually cause any adapation other than training your body to run for a pretty long speed workout.)

Shorter repeats (faster than 5K pace), often called "strides" of 30s-2 min with long, full recovery (1-2 min, or up to double the time) are for developing running economy and leg turnover.


There are obvious variations of these, but I hope this helps.

[Jwolf]

btw- I also didn't see Pat's comment as "don't bother." It was more, "there should be a reason for why you're doing what you're doing, or else you could be wasting a lot of time and effort." I agree.

[ultraslacker]

well I'm sorry if I misread it. I get frustrated when I start a thread to ask one question and it gets turned into something completely different--I really was just asking about people's favourite workouts, period.

[turd ferguson]

I get frustrated when I start a thread to ask one question and it gets turned into something completely different

Isn't that every thread on this website? I can't imagine your anger level.

[CinC]

well I'm sorry if I misread it. I get frustrated when I start a thread to ask one question and it gets turned into something completely different--I really was just asking about people's favourite workouts, period.

my favorite track workout? none of them - they're all painful!

[Jwolf]

well I'm sorry if I misread it. I get frustrated when I start a thread to ask one question and it gets turned into something completely different--I really was just asking about people's favourite workouts, period.

But the problem is that no one who really does speed work has a "favorite" workout that can be taken completely out of context.

The context then becomes part of the discussion-- I don't see what's wrong with that.

eta: When I said before that it's helpful to know the purpose of the workout and why you're doing it, I didn't mean "you", Holly. I meant for anybody reading this thread. Maybe it wasn't the exact purpose of your question, but I'm sure that's what some people would be interested in when they see the answers....no? Why is that a bad thing?

[ultraslacker]

I get frustrated when I start a thread to ask one question and it gets turned into something completely different

Isn't that every thread on this website? I can't imagine your anger level.

have you met me? I'm one of the most frustrated/annoyable people I know. There are many reasons that I handed over the admin of this site--that's one of them. :)

(now I'm hijacking my own thread... and yes, I frustrate myself even more than other people frustrate me! ;)

[ian]

FWIW, I also took Pat's comments somewhat negatively, even though I understand the reasoning. There are a couple of reasons why "fun speedwork" can be beneficial even if it doesn't provide an optimal training stimulus:

(1) Most people run with better technique when doing speedwork than when running slowly & any kind of speedwork can then allow some of this efficiency to carry over to the slower paces.

(2) Much of a runner's mileage is at an easy pace (recovery runs, warmups, cooldowns, LSDs, etc.) and it is my opinion that the single biggest training error that many runners make is to go too quickly on these easy runs. A fun speedwork session, even if it isn't productive in isolation, can make it easier to stay disciplined for these other runs.