Duathlon Pacing Question

[Double Bellybuster]

I am approaching my first Duathlon - it is 5K run, 20K bike, 2.5K run.

For those who have done this sort of thing before - how should I pace myself during the opening run to leave the right amount in the tank while not sacrificing time - would Half Marathon pace or marginally quicker seem about right?

Thanks!

[La]

The Du distances are "backwards" from what we do in tri (we do the longer run at the end), so it's tough for me (as a triathlete) to answer that question. I'm not sure the reason for doing the longer run first. Anyone?

[HCcD]

The Du distances are "backwards" from what we do in tri (we do the longer run at the end), so it's tough for me (as a triathlete) to answer that question. I'm not sure the reason for doing the longer run first. Anyone?

The only thing that I can think of is that because it is a mass start at 8:55am for the DU, and with the sprint tri at 9am, they want them to enter the T1 at approximately the same time, at least the Top Leaders of the DUs and TRI peeps ....

Where it would be confusing is that on the 3rd leg ... the Duathletes would only have to do one loop of the 2.5K course, while the Triathletes would have to do 2 loops, assuming it's a 2.5K loop ... Which would lead to mass confusion on the course .... as some multi-sports sometimes can't count to 2, and may only do one loop ....

eta: And, to answer your question ... if you are training by HR ... I would suggest Tempo Pace ... faster than 10K pace slower than usual 5K pace ... And, let it puke on the final 2.5K on the second run ...

[दिवंगत]

It depends a little on what shape you're in. I'd do that distance all out, all the way, like a sprint!

[turd ferguson]

It depends a little on what shape you're in. I'd do that distance all out, all the way, like a sprint!

+1

The distances were similar (but reversed) for my first duathlon a few weeks ago and I was more than capable of going all-out.

[Double Bellybuster]

Thanks all. Got it - go like hell, vomit if the crowd needs entertainment. I'm all set.

[Double Bellybuster]

So how about tapering for a 20K Bike & 7.5K Run? Similar to a 10K, where I would go with Higdon Advanced 10K Plan of Easy-Easy-Off the three days prior and the last speed workout four days prior?

Thanks.

[DougG]

Some duathlons have the shorter run first then the longer run. As far as doing it full out, I guess that depoends on your fitness level - if I did that I wouldn't finish I think of it as a 90 minute running event and try to pace from there.

[HCcD]

It depends a little on what shape you're in. I'd do that distance all out, all the way, like a sprint!

These short one's are called "sprint" duathlons for a reason ....

The one I'm DUing in Ottawa this saturday is a 2K run / 20K bike / 5K run

Race / Bike / Race till you puke for a sprint duathlon will be the order of the day, I hope ...

[Jwolf]

It depends a little on what shape you're in. I'd do that distance all out, all the way, like a sprint!

+1

The distances were similar (but reversed) for my first duathlon a few weeks ago and I was more than capable of going all-out.

I don't get what you guys mean by "all out". Isn't racing always about pacing yourself for the distance?
How is this different from longer triathlon/duathlons where athletes are warned not to leave it all out on the swim or bike?

That is, pace for the time/distance of the whole race, which would be closer to 10K pace, not 5K pace, right?

[दिवंगत]

It depends a little on what shape you're in. I'd do that distance all out, all the way, like a sprint!

+1

The distances were similar (but reversed) for my first duathlon a few weeks ago and I was more than capable of going all-out.

I don't get what you guys mean by "all out". Isn't racing always about pacing yourself for the distance?

For these distances I could go all out, all the time with no need to pace myself. That's why I put the qualifier in my comment about it depending on what shape he's in.

[Jwolf]

For these distances I could go all out, all the time with no need to pace myself. That's why I put the qualifier in my comment about it depending on what shape he's in.

I guess it's just a different definition of "pacing yourself".

[Double Bellybuster]

Thanks all. The comments do help and illustrate where my uncertainty around pacing comes from. I am a decent runner, experiened enough that I am usually able to forecast my race pace within 5 seconds per K in most cases for run only races (with lots of help from McMillan and other calculators) - so my uncertainty was whether this will feel like three back-to-back run workouts (where I would pace like a Half Marathon on the first 5K run) or whether there would be some recovery for running endurance while on the bike (and I would pace like a 5K-10K on the opening run) Thanks for the feedback, the "Run Like Hell" suggestions make me realize it is the latter - and of course on the final 2.5K run, I will just gauge what is in the tank, OK there.

On the secondary tapering question, I'll treat it more like three back-to-back workouts and will prepare as I would for a Ten Mile Running Race, which will be similar in duration. So last Tempo run Tuesday for a Saturday event, with Easy-Easy-Off for the three days before the event.

[Pat Menzies]

There seems to be an "all out" confusion thing going on here. Unless you're sprinting the run portions (or at least running a PB for them), or riding your bike like you're in a Tour prologue, you're pacing yourself.
A sprint Duathlon is about comparable to a 15km-half race in duration and intensity so the effort level you can sustain for that time is what you end up doing.
You can be a bit more reckless in the first run portion because there is some actual recovery time in the transition zone and most bike courses will offer areas where you can enhance your recovery on the bike. If you actually went "all out" you would be feeling like you just finished a 5km race.
The people that win these things pace themselves, so you should too.

[दिवंगत]

Unless you're sprinting the run portions (or at least running a PB for them), or riding your bike like you're in a Tour prologue, you're pacing yourself.

That's pretty much how I'd race it, especially the bike (it's only 20k! that's at or hopefully just under 30min) and the very short second run. For the first run; my 5k pb is a few seconds over 20min so I'd aim for 21min. I guess you could call that pacing if you want to, but it's not by much.

[Jwolf]

For the first run; my 5k pb is a few seconds over 20min so I'd aim for 21min. I guess you could call that pacing if you want to, but it's not by much.

There's a big difference between 20 and 21 minutes-- that's basically the difference between 5K pace and 10K pace. That's what I was getting at. It's definitely pacing for the longer total distance/time of the duathlon, rather than being spent after a 5K PB "leave it all out there" effort.

You might not need to consciously think about it being slower-- but it's still it's still pacing.

[eljeffe]

The short races are speedwork. I'd probably race it the same way as Mark, all out. If my 5k PB was 20 minutes, I'd shoot for 19 in this race. On a race that short there's not going to be a lot of drop off in speed as a result of fatigue since you can get away with racing over your lactate threshold for the duration of this race. It would be the exact same approach as a sprint triathlon, and there's not much conservation going on there, it's get to the finish line as fast as you can. As was mentioned, the transition time would act as fairly serviceable recovery intervals before the next stage of hammering.

[दिवंगत]

For the first run; my 5k pb is a few seconds over 20min so I'd aim for 21min. I guess you could call that pacing if you want to, but it's not by much.

There's a big difference between 20 and 21 minutes-- that's basically the difference between 5K pace and 10K pace. That's what I was getting at. It's definitely pacing for the longer total distance/time of the duathlon, rather than being spent after a 5K PB "leave it all out there" effort.

You might not need to consciously think about it being slower-- but it's still it's still pacing.

You're right Jennifer; I can run a 100m in about 13sec so it follows that running a 21min 5k is practically coasting. So yes, for sure, without doubt, I'm not going all out. If you feel the need the split the 20min/21min hair that finely then yes, I agree with you, you're RIGHT, I pace myself. Happy?

[Jwolf]

Wow- I'm only trying to get a better understanding of how this all works since I have a peripheral interest in triathlon/multisport-- I'm not trying to be "right". Aren't we all trying to learn?

Mostly I was interested in understanding how the transitions and change to the bike allows for recovery, and how that plays into how you pace. Pat (who is an experienced duathlete) explained that pretty well, so I get it now. I would have thought that if you push hard "all out" on the first run you risk losing your whole race, but now I see how there is some forgiveness there, with the transition and easing onto the bike. But if you really do go about 10 sec slower than an all-out 5K, then there's a good answer right there. I'm interested in doing more cycling but don't know if I could be interested in multi-sport races because putting the sports together is so much more complicated than each one alone. I have a lot of respect for the people that do it well, and like to learn from that.

[दिवंगत]

I don't know what Pat's experience is.

My experience is that an all out 5k will leave me aerobically quite winded and my legs will be fatigued. However, a 1 min transition will allow me to catch my breath. My legs in a 20k "prologue" won't be affected by a 5k run to any great degree; further, a 20k all out on the bike won't hurt too much aerobically, but it will take me way into anaerobic territory in my legs. My legs will be hurting at the end of the bike but I won't be particularly out of breath. A short transition allows the legs to loosen up just enough to run 2.5k ALL OUT.

Coming off a very hard, all out effort running leaves me feeling very different than an all out effort on the bike. That's why doing this distance I could go virtually all out, all the way. If you're not absolutely literal in your interpretation of the phrase "all out".

Pat's experience may be different.

[Double Bellybuster]

Thanks to all, this has been very useful. Mark, your response below is particularly useful, it sums things up perfectly for someone new to multisporting - it both helps me prepare for this race and helps me understand what I have been seeing in preparatory brick workouts as far as being able to hop off the bike and boogie as if nothing has place prior to the run.

My experience is that an all out 5k will leave me aerobically quite winded and my legs will be fatigued. However, a 1 min transition will allow me to catch my breath. My legs in a 20k "prologue" won't be affected by a 5k run to any great degree; further, a 20k all out on the bike won't hurt too much aerobically, but it will take me way into anaerobic territory in my legs. My legs will be hurting at the end of the bike but I won't be particularly out of breath. A short transition allows the legs to loosen up just enough to run 2.5k ALL OUT.

[Double Bellybuster]

If my 5k PB was 20 minutes, I'd shoot for 19 in this race.

I love it. This will be cool to be in a distance that enables this. Will let you know how I make out next Saturday, thanks for the great advice.

[Pat Menzies]

If you can take a minute of your 5km pb get on a bike and do a good TT AND run another leg, you were some kind of slacker in races before. Or in really poor shape.
That makes so little sense that it totally contradicts every known physiological principle.
It kind of sounds like the advice you will hear from non-athletes: Just get out in front and don't let anyone pass you.

[eljeffe]

Just get out in front and don't let anyone pass you.

+1. Shake and bake, baby. If you're not first, you're last.

[Double Bellybuster]

If you can take a minute of your 5km pb...That makes so little sense that it totally contradicts every known physiological principle.

Sure, but it was well stated for me to get the point that was being made, I can run at a 5K race pace and not worry about impact later in the race.