Buying your performance on the bike!!

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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby turd ferguson » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:16 am

Mark 2.1 wrote:
CinC wrote:To me it sounds ridiculous that you would have an aero helmet but not clipless pedals, but whatever

Rereading this morning; this comment stood out - and was referenced by a couple of others too - as I'm wondering why it's ridiculous? If Jamie is on a limited budget, even if he bought new, an aero helmet is much less cost than clip less peddles and bike shoes by about half and perhaps gains a greater power transfer/saving benefit (I don't have any data on that, it might be less but it's still significant). That's what I'd do too, actually.


Its hard for me to come up with an answer for this one because I don't know any serious riders who aren't clipless. Do you remember going clipless and how much it changed how you ride? Can you imagine charging over a hill or riding out of the saddle without clipless?
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Mark.AU » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:33 am

turd ferguson wrote:
Mark 2.1 wrote:
CinC wrote:To me it sounds ridiculous that you would have an aero helmet but not clipless pedals, but whatever

Rereading this morning; this comment stood out - and was referenced by a couple of others too - as I'm wondering why it's ridiculous? If Jamie is on a limited budget, even if he bought new, an aero helmet is much less cost than clip less peddles and bike shoes by about half and perhaps gains a greater power transfer/saving benefit (I don't have any data on that, it might be less but it's still significant). That's what I'd do too, actually.


Its hard for me to come up with an answer for this one because I don't know any serious riders who aren't clipless. Do you remember going clipless and how much it changed how you ride? Can you imagine charging over a hill or riding out of the saddle without clipless?

nope. But, as I said, if I were Jamie, were on a limited budget and had a choice between $100 aero helmet or $250 (minimum) for peddles and bike shoes, and I was racing sprints, I'd go with the helmet probably. This is not to understate the value of clip less - far from it, you're right in saying that a serious cyclist would consider them essential - but in the context of budget and frankly, how serious Jamie is as a cyclist, then I'd recommend going with the cheaper option. That's why I don't get why it's "ridiculous" in this context; not meant to be a shot at anyone, least of all Carla.
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby turd ferguson » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:40 am

Mark 2.1 wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:
Mark 2.1 wrote:
CinC wrote:To me it sounds ridiculous that you would have an aero helmet but not clipless pedals, but whatever

Rereading this morning; this comment stood out - and was referenced by a couple of others too - as I'm wondering why it's ridiculous? If Jamie is on a limited budget, even if he bought new, an aero helmet is much less cost than clip less peddles and bike shoes by about half and perhaps gains a greater power transfer/saving benefit (I don't have any data on that, it might be less but it's still significant). That's what I'd do too, actually.


Its hard for me to come up with an answer for this one because I don't know any serious riders who aren't clipless. Do you remember going clipless and how much it changed how you ride? Can you imagine charging over a hill or riding out of the saddle without clipless?

nope. But, as I said, if I were Jamie, were on a limited budget and had a choice between $100 aero helmet or $250 (minimum) for peddles and bike shoes, and I was racing sprints, I'd go with the helmet probably. This is not to understate the value of clip less - far from it, you're right in saying that a serious cyclist would consider them essential - but in the context of budget and frankly, how serious Jamie is as a cyclist, then I'd recommend going with the cheaper option. That's why I don't get why it's "ridiculous" in this context; not meant to be a shot at anyone, least of all Carla.


Fair enough. I don't know Jamie. But I also think that value is more important than cheap and the value of clipless (to me at least) is off the charts.
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby HCcD » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:41 am

Mark 2.1 wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:
Mark 2.1 wrote:
CinC wrote:To me it sounds ridiculous that you would have an aero helmet but not clipless pedals, but whatever

Rereading this morning; this comment stood out - and was referenced by a couple of others too - as I'm wondering why it's ridiculous? If Jamie is on a limited budget, even if he bought new, an aero helmet is much less cost than clip less peddles and bike shoes by about half and perhaps gains a greater power transfer/saving benefit (I don't have any data on that, it might be less but it's still significant). That's what I'd do too, actually.


Its hard for me to come up with an answer for this one because I don't know any serious riders who aren't clipless. Do you remember going clipless and how much it changed how you ride? Can you imagine charging over a hill or riding out of the saddle without clipless?

nope. But, as I said, if I were Jamie, were on a limited budget and had a choice between $100 aero helmet or $250 (minimum) for peddles and bike shoes, and I was racing sprints, I'd go with the helmet probably. This is not to understate the value of clip less - far from it, you're right in saying that a serious cyclist would consider them essential - but in the context of budget and frankly, how serious Jamie is as a cyclist, then I'd recommend going with the cheaper option. That's why I don't get why it's "ridiculous" in this context; not meant to be a shot at anyone, least of all Carla.


In some cases, you could get a lightly used aerohelmet for as low as $40-$50, if you know a person ... :shifty: :wink:

For the type of triathlons in the Ottawa area (i.e. Somersault events) most of them are flat, either along the Ottawa River and/or Canal ... There are some multi-sport platform pedal systems that allow you to use regular running shoes, i.e. Pyro and Pedal Power ... which would save you minutes in transition by not having change shoes ... my ex-coach, DUing her 20th straight AG Worlds this year in Ottawa, still use this type of system and can go through her T-1 and T-2 in less than 30 seconds ... and, usually the top 1-3 in that discipline over the other competitors in this area ...
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby HCcD » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:13 am

jamix wrote:
HCcD wrote:
jamix wrote:
CinC wrote:To me it sounds ridiculous that you would have an aero helmet but not clipless pedals, but whatever


As Andy said, I got a deal I couldn't refuse. And I've been reading that clipless shoes won't make me faster, but are just more safe........

Anyway, here is what I've been reading recently

http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2010/04/b ... equipment/

Interesting stuff! And it looks like Mark might be wrong about getting a skin suit :shifty:

Andy.......

Your aero-bars fit great :P . We'll see about the bike-fit. Right now all I'm thinking of doing is getting the tune-up from you guys and cutting out a circular piece of disposable cardboard, to use as a "disc cover" :shifty:


I thought that the key word here was "affordable" ways to help improve your bike performance ?? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Bunch of critics around here .. as part of the Euro-Sports.ca running team, Jamie, when you get your bike tune-up and ready to go, there should not be any additional costs to you, to ensure that your current set up is to your needs ...

Having said that, are you, or rather, were you, how long are you now able to sit in your aerobars, during those Olympic bike splits?

And, yes, from your purchases last season from Andy's Warehouse, I believe that Jamie received the best bang for his $$bucks$ to improve both his swimming and cycling times ... and, clipless pedals and shoes may be the next option to consider ...


Yes lots of critics, but that's okay because I asked everyone for their opinion :P

Really no additional cost for the "fit"! I'll definitely do it when I come in for the tune-up then :)

After a couple months of practise, I can stay in the aero position for 20km no problem. With that said, in the past two years at Early Bird (which takes place in May and has a 24km bike course), I could stay "aero" for about 17-19 km, before having to periodically sit-up to relieve sore back muscles. I'm not sure how I'd do in a 40km ride, as I have never even attempted to ride "aero" for that distance.


Yeah, as Mark and others have alluded to ... they could probably take a look at your current road bike setup and perhaps tweak it a bit ... Whereas, if you were to go out shopping for a new / used TT bike, a full fitting would be more useful ....
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Mark.AU » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:27 am

turd ferguson wrote:
Mark 2.1 wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:
Mark 2.1 wrote:
CinC wrote:To me it sounds ridiculous that you would have an aero helmet but not clipless pedals, but whatever

Rereading this morning; this comment stood out - and was referenced by a couple of others too - as I'm wondering why it's ridiculous? If Jamie is on a limited budget, even if he bought new, an aero helmet is much less cost than clip less peddles and bike shoes by about half and perhaps gains a greater power transfer/saving benefit (I don't have any data on that, it might be less but it's still significant). That's what I'd do too, actually.


Its hard for me to come up with an answer for this one because I don't know any serious riders who aren't clipless. Do you remember going clipless and how much it changed how you ride? Can you imagine charging over a hill or riding out of the saddle without clipless?

nope. But, as I said, if I were Jamie, were on a limited budget and had a choice between $100 aero helmet or $250 (minimum) for peddles and bike shoes, and I was racing sprints, I'd go with the helmet probably. This is not to understate the value of clip less - far from it, you're right in saying that a serious cyclist would consider them essential - but in the context of budget and frankly, how serious Jamie is as a cyclist, then I'd recommend going with the cheaper option. That's why I don't get why it's "ridiculous" in this context; not meant to be a shot at anyone, least of all Carla.

Fair enough. I don't know Jamie. But I also think that value is more important than cheap and the value of clipless (to me at least) is off the charts.

Agree 100% on the value and worth of clip less, I had clip less peddles well before I had an aero helmet; the big difference is I could comfortably afford them.
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby turd ferguson » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:41 am

Mark 2.1 wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:
Mark 2.1 wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:
Mark 2.1 wrote:
CinC wrote:To me it sounds ridiculous that you would have an aero helmet but not clipless pedals, but whatever

Rereading this morning; this comment stood out - and was referenced by a couple of others too - as I'm wondering why it's ridiculous? If Jamie is on a limited budget, even if he bought new, an aero helmet is much less cost than clip less peddles and bike shoes by about half and perhaps gains a greater power transfer/saving benefit (I don't have any data on that, it might be less but it's still significant). That's what I'd do too, actually.


Its hard for me to come up with an answer for this one because I don't know any serious riders who aren't clipless. Do you remember going clipless and how much it changed how you ride? Can you imagine charging over a hill or riding out of the saddle without clipless?

nope. But, as I said, if I were Jamie, were on a limited budget and had a choice between $100 aero helmet or $250 (minimum) for peddles and bike shoes, and I was racing sprints, I'd go with the helmet probably. This is not to understate the value of clip less - far from it, you're right in saying that a serious cyclist would consider them essential - but in the context of budget and frankly, how serious Jamie is as a cyclist, then I'd recommend going with the cheaper option. That's why I don't get why it's "ridiculous" in this context; not meant to be a shot at anyone, least of all Carla.

Fair enough. I don't know Jamie. But I also think that value is more important than cheap and the value of clipless (to me at least) is off the charts.

Agree 100% on the value and worth of clip less, I had clip less peddles well before I had an aero helmet; the big difference is I could comfortably afford them.


I've been riding so long I had clipless pedals before I had an actual helmet.
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Wu wei » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:20 pm

Mark 2.1 wrote:You can't buy training so ill ignore that...

Meh on the fit - it'll make a very small difference assuming you're already comfortable.
Bigger meh on the skin suit - practically no measurable difference at the level you're riding at.

In order;
Disk cover - $100 and worth every penny.
Clipless peddles - depending on what you buy, some $100s but again worth every penny for better power transfer
Fast tires properly fitted and appropriately inflated - $100
Well maintained bike to reduce power losses through drive train inefficiencies - free

That'll do for now.


Nailed it.

Tires and tubes are VERY under-rated!!!! Switching to a fast rolling tire and latex inner tubes is HUGE.
I ride Continental GP4000S with Vittoria latex.
Might save as much Watts as an aero wheelset for a fraction of the price.
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Pat Menzies » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:13 pm

I think clipless pedals are overrated. I know people act as if they can't keep their feet on the pedals if they are not clipped in but that seems like a problem with an overzealous pull on the upstroke, likely at the expense of pushing down on the opposite pedal.
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Wu wei » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:22 pm

Pat Menzies wrote:I think clipless pedals are overrated. I know people act as if they can't keep their feet on the pedals if they are not clipped in but that seems like a problem with an overzealous pull on the upstroke, likely at the expense of pushing down on the opposite pedal.


I'd have to do some searching but I think the studies showed an increase in power transfer upwards of 30% with clipless vs flat pedals. That is pretty significant. The difference between a good and bad cycling shoe can be a few percent... I can't imagine how much energy a running shoe would absorb.

Clipless pedals are also far safer. Imagine descending a long steep hill and your foot slips off a flat pedal....
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Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Jwolf » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:00 pm

Wu wei wrote:
Pat Menzies wrote:I think clipless pedals are overrated. I know people act as if they can't keep their feet on the pedals if they are not clipped in but that seems like a problem with an overzealous pull on the upstroke, likely at the expense of pushing down on the opposite pedal.


I'd have to do some searching but I think the studies showed an increase in power transfer upwards of 30% with clipless vs flat pedals. That is pretty significant. The difference between a good and bad cycling shoe can be a few percent... I can't imagine how much energy a running shoe would absorb.

Clipless pedals are also far safer. Imagine descending a long steep hill and your foot slips off a flat pedal....

Are we comparing clipless vs flat pedal/no clip at all or cage clips?
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby jamix » Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:46 pm

So some debate on the value of clipless pedals . Personally I'm not convinced yet, but if anyone can reference the study Wui Wei was referring to which claimed 30% improvement in efficiency, I'd love to see it :shifty:

Andy.......

Does Euro-sport exam the tires in a fitting for proper pressure? Do you guys sell "shoe covers" or latex tubing?
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Pat Menzies » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:29 am

Wu wei wrote:
Pat Menzies wrote:I think clipless pedals are overrated. I know people act as if they can't keep their feet on the pedals if they are not clipped in but that seems like a problem with an overzealous pull on the upstroke, likely at the expense of pushing down on the opposite pedal.


I'd have to do some searching but I think the studies showed an increase in power transfer upwards of 30% with clipless vs flat pedals. That is pretty significant. The difference between a good and bad cycling shoe can be a few percent... I can't imagine how much energy a running shoe would absorb.

Clipless pedals are also far safer. Imagine descending a long steep hill and your foot slips off a flat pedal....

Those studies likely involve people who believe that they can't even turn the cranks unless they are clipped in and don't put any effort into a flat pedal test. :)
I'm not sure why you reference a scenario where downhill mishaps might occur. The most dangerous hill descending is done by downhill racers and BMX riders who I believe only use platform pedals.
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby ROW » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:31 am

Clipless pedals are more efficient over just platform pedals. End of story.

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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Wu wei » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:31 pm

Pat Menzies wrote:
Wu wei wrote:
Pat Menzies wrote:I think clipless pedals are overrated. I know people act as if they can't keep their feet on the pedals if they are not clipped in but that seems like a problem with an overzealous pull on the upstroke, likely at the expense of pushing down on the opposite pedal.


I'd have to do some searching but I think the studies showed an increase in power transfer upwards of 30% with clipless vs flat pedals. That is pretty significant. The difference between a good and bad cycling shoe can be a few percent... I can't imagine how much energy a running shoe would absorb.

Clipless pedals are also far safer. Imagine descending a long steep hill and your foot slips off a flat pedal....

Those studies likely involve people who believe that they can't even turn the cranks unless they are clipped in and don't put any effort into a flat pedal test. :)
I'm not sure why you reference a scenario where downhill mishaps might occur. The most dangerous hill descending is done by downhill racers and BMX riders who I believe only use platform pedals.



Downhillers and BMX use flat pedals because they need to be free of the bike because of the course demands.
There is no way I would enter something like a crit with flat pedals.

And after some research, I haven't yet found a good scientific study that proves the efficiency gains from clipless pedals.
Lots of anecdotal evidence, but nothing else. Will post if I do...
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Jwolf » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:39 pm

Still no one answered my question above-- but I see people are comparing clipless to platform pedals. Does anyone use cage clips anymore? Apparently they aren't allowed in some triathlons if they have straps, but regular plastic cages are allowed. I'm assuming those aren't used much though.
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Wu wei » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:58 pm

Jwolf wrote:Still no one answered my question above-- but I see people are comparing clipless to platform pedals. Does anyone use cage clips anymore? Apparently they aren't allowed in some triathlons if they have straps, but regular plastic cages are allowed. I'm assuming those aren't used much though.


Cage clips with straps are banned at all sanctioned races. As an official I was told to be strict on this rule last year.
Without a strap you might as well just use flat pedals...
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Jwolf » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:03 pm

Thanks for answering the newbie question. :)
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Sir Crashalot » Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:10 pm

Been riding year round & sort of competing since 2003. No clipless for this guy... faster to bail out if one gets into trouble.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Wu wei » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:58 am

Sir Crashalot wrote:Been riding year round & sort of competing since 2003. No clipless for this guy... faster to bail out if one gets into trouble.... :lol: :lol: :lol:


Your forum name does not inspire much confidence in your opinion of flat pedals. :lol:
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby fingerboy » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:07 pm

A gas powered engine?

cheap - use one from a thrown out boat or something?

definitely an easy way to increase your speed on the bike. Esp for the hills.

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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby HCcD » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:59 pm

jamix wrote:So some debate on the value of clipless pedals . Personally I'm not convinced yet, but if anyone can reference the study Wui Wei was referring to which claimed 30% improvement in efficiency, I'd love to see it :shifty:

Andy.......

Does Euro-sport exam the tires in a fitting for proper pressure? Do you guys sell "shoe covers" or latex tubing?


Whatever, you want, if the shop does not carry it, we will gladly order it for you, Jamie ... :P

As for clipless pedals .... you can easily find spd pedals for st*pid cheap prices, and if you know someone with lightly used and/or even brand new ones available, it can be really, really affordable ... and, you could just get cheaper touring/mtb bike shoes, if you do not want to splurge on the more aerodynamic and funkier expensive road shoes out there along with the more expensive road pedal systems ....

For a number cruncher, as yourself, wonder if there are any stats out there, for the savings of clipless pedals vs cage systems, time adjusted for the extra time it takes to go through transition having to change bike shoes into running shoes? :think: :think: :think: For 0lympic distance and longer, I would think that the benefits would out-weigh the extra time ... for a sprint (20K bike), perhaps not so much ????
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby Wu wei » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:03 pm

HCcD wrote:
jamix wrote:So some debate on the value of clipless pedals . Personally I'm not convinced yet, but if anyone can reference the study Wui Wei was referring to which claimed 30% improvement in efficiency, I'd love to see it :shifty:

Andy.......

Does Euro-sport exam the tires in a fitting for proper pressure? Do you guys sell "shoe covers" or latex tubing?


Whatever, you want, if the shop does not carry it, we will gladly order it for you, Jamie ... :P

As for clipless pedals .... you can easily find spd pedals for st*pid cheap prices, and if you know someone with lightly used and/or even brand new ones available, it can be really, really affordable ... and, you could just get cheaper touring/mtb bike shoes, if you do not want to splurge on the more aerodynamic and funkier expensive road shoes out there along with the more expensive road pedal systems ....

For a number cruncher, as yourself, wonder if there are any stats out there, for the savings of clipless pedals vs cage systems, time adjusted for the extra time it takes to go through transition having to change bike shoes into running shoes? :think: :think: :think: For 0lympic distance and longer, I would think that the benefits would out-weigh the extra time ... for a sprint (20K bike), perhaps not so much ????


Depends how fast you transition. With barefoot dismount and elastic laces... I lose maybe 10s.
Besides, as noted, cage systems have been banned by Triathlon Canada. Flat pedals or clipless only.

And apropos to this discussion... good tires are worth WAY more than aero wheels:
http://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/06/13/bicycle-quarterly-performance-of-tires/
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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby carm » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:13 pm

HCcD wrote:As for clipless pedals .... you can easily find spd pedals for st*pid cheap prices, and if you know someone with lightly used and/or even brand new ones available, it can be really, really affordable ...


I have some old SPDs with maybe 2 years of commuting on my hybrid that I could probably tear off with a pedal wrench and sell to you, Jamie, for a pretty reasonable price. I'd have to find the corresponding flat pedals though. Let me look tonight.
Carm

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Re: Buying your performance on the bike!!

Postby HCcD » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:28 pm

In that case, as our local tris and dus are not certified by either OAT nor Triathlon Canada, you are not affected by no caged pedal policy .... ;)

And, yes practice your 4th discipline that is Transitions ... When possible make it out to
Adams transition and brick workouts this spring / summer ....
Race Results: http://itsmyrun.com/index.php?display=p ... unner=HCiD


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