"The Secret Life of Fat"

Because you can't outrun a bad diet!
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"The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby Jwolf » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:38 pm

I listened to this interesting podcast with the author of the book "The Secret Life of Fat" (Dr. Sylvia Tara)

http://anothermotherrunner.com/2017/02/ ... tara-ph-d/

Among other things she talks about hormonal changes that take place when we lose weight, particularly the role of leptin, and the factors that make it difficult to keep off weight once you lose. Namely that most people will actually require less calories after they lose weight than someone who was always at that same weight. (For example, if you start at 170 and lose 20 pounds to 150, you will need to eat less calories to stay at 150 than someone who was always at 150.)

She also talks about finding what works for you, which may not be what works for everyone else. Interesting stuff.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby scrumhalfgirl » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:17 pm

I haven't read the book but I HATED the interview! I find that intermittent fasting stuff to be crap and I basically she was promoting totally unhealthy/abnormal eating patterns. I usually like the AMR interviews but was disappointed with this one.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby IronGoddess » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:33 pm

I agree. This was a horrible interview so unhealthy. She basically doesn't eat from 3:30 on and then eats whatever for 5 hrs a day. How is this healthy. I can not believe they had her on the podcast. I actually turned it off before it was over I was getting so angry.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby IronColl » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:42 pm

The way intermittent fasting was described I didn't think it was as bad as it seemed. I tend to go 15 hours between eating but I've never considered it fasting. I think about fasting as days without food, not less than a 24h period.

I am interested in the science she talks about so I have the book reserved from the library to read.

And I found the most frustrating part of the podcast all the fluff they went through before the actual interview.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby alexk » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:04 pm

I listened to the podcast yesterday on my long run. While I couldn't imagine following her nutritional regime, I didn't find it offensive. It seemed like it took her a long time, and a lot of work, to figure out what worked best for her.

I have a friend who shares a similar story. Maybe that's why her eating habits didn't seem extreme to me. I was focused on connecting her experience to my friend's. This friend is in her early 50s. She, too, had struggled w/ dieting her whole life. I always thought she looked great, but she didn't feel great. Two years ago, she started a diet (I use that word only because it was a diet in its early stages) where she would limit her calories a couple of days a week - eating mainly raw veggies and fruit. On the other days, she would eat a wider variety of foods (mostly healthy, I'd say). The result? She lost 20 pounds and has kept it off. She still follows the plan but can be a bit more indulgent. She's was always fit and active but is more so now. She says she feels better and has more energy than she ever has.

Unlike the woman interviewed by AMR, my friend always ate with her family. Always. She would just eat less on the days she was restricting calories.

I did find the science behind the woman's (being interviewed) weight management interesting.

ETA: I thought she lost 25 lbs but she informed me it was 20! Also, I should admit that I was skeptical about all this initially. But, after 2 years, I see how it works for her. Unlike some diets, it hasn't restricted her lifestyle in anyway. When we go out, she eats (and drinks) what we all do. I think she's just become more mindful of managing her calories in a way that is effective for her weight management.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby La » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:04 am

In my experience (being a woman over 50 who lost weight and is now struggling to keep it off and re-lose some of that same weight), I do agree with the assertion that I need fewer calories than someone else of my height, weight and body composition. Age is part of it, but so is the fact that (at my lowest weight) I lost 80 pounds. Actually, I think that age & menopause has much more to do with it now than anything else. That, coupled with a lower activity level (due to injuries preventing me from being as active as I used to be), and a variety of different meds I was taking for hot flashes and pain management, it's been nearly impossible (and very frustrating) to try to maintain, let alone lose weight.

As for the intermittent fasting, on my best days I fast for about 12-13 hours, ideally not eating between dinner (around 6PM) and breakfast the next day (around 7:30AM). I wouldn't really call that fasting, though.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby IronColl » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:22 am

alexk wrote:I listened to the podcast yesterday on my long run. While I couldn't imagine following her nutritional regime, I didn't find it offensive. It seemed like it took her a long time, and a lot of work, to figure out what worked best for her.


I think that's one of the take home messages, it took a long time and a lot of work to figure out what worked best for her. We've all heard someone say, or have been the one that says "that doesn't work for me" and I think the reason someone says that is that they didn't have enough patience to stick with something long enough to see if it works.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby La » Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:55 pm

IronColl wrote:
alexk wrote:I listened to the podcast yesterday on my long run. While I couldn't imagine following her nutritional regime, I didn't find it offensive. It seemed like it took her a long time, and a lot of work, to figure out what worked best for her.


I think that's one of the take home messages, it took a long time and a lot of work to figure out what worked best for her. We've all heard someone say, or have been the one that says "that doesn't work for me" and I think the reason someone says that is that they didn't have enough patience to stick with something long enough to see if it works.

Compliance with restrictive diets tends to be low unless that diet fits with your lifestyle (i.e., you enjoy, or at least can tolerate, eating that way). I don't think it's fair to say that it has to do with lack of patience. Experimenting and tweaking what/how/when you eat is all part of the process of figuring out an eating plan that meets all your requirements.

To further complicate things, unless you have an allergy or extreme sensitivity to something, rarely are the effects of dietary change immediately seen or felt. So if the diet is extremely restrictive, most people won't be able to live with it very long if they aren't seeing results.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby IronColl » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:12 pm

La wrote:
IronColl wrote:
alexk wrote:I listened to the podcast yesterday on my long run. While I couldn't imagine following her nutritional regime, I didn't find it offensive. It seemed like it took her a long time, and a lot of work, to figure out what worked best for her.


I think that's one of the take home messages, it took a long time and a lot of work to figure out what worked best for her. We've all heard someone say, or have been the one that says "that doesn't work for me" and I think the reason someone says that is that they didn't have enough patience to stick with something long enough to see if it works.

Compliance with restrictive diets tends to be low unless that diet fits with your lifestyle (i.e., you enjoy, or at least can tolerate, eating that way). I don't think it's fair to say that it has to do with lack of patience. Experimenting and tweaking what/how/when you eat is all part of the process of figuring out an eating plan that meets all your requirements.

To further complicate things, unless you have an allergy or extreme sensitivity to something, rarely are the effects of dietary change immediately seen or felt. So if the diet is extremely restrictive, most people won't be able to live with it very long if they aren't seeing results.


Your last sentence is exactly what I mean about patience. If results aren't seen immediately there is the assumption that it isn't working. This is my opinion and I am not pointing fingers at anyone so I hope no one thinks I am picking on them. There are things I eat because I know they are good for me. Just yesterday Joe and I were talking about my smoothies that I make. I really don't enjoy them, but I know that they help with my disease control so I tolerate them.
Interesting thought about an eating plan that fits all of your requirements. I don't think it's possible because, again my opinion, people want to lose weight yet they don't want to give up foods they enjoy for very long if at all.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby Habs4ever » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:39 pm

Interesting thought about an eating plan that fits all of your requirements. I don't think it's possible because, again my opinion, people want to lose weight yet they don't want to give up foods they enjoy for very long if at all.

I agree with this.

I'd love to lose 5 more pounds but I don't want to give up cinnamon buns. So, do I really want to lose 5 more pounds? Probably not, if I was really serious about it, I would be willing to give up cinnamon buns.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby tayken » Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:00 pm

This is just it. Discipline is a hard thing for some people, and while emphasis gets placed on "food", some people fail to see the impact coffee (including all the fancy starbucks ones), beer and pop has on their weight.

Am no medical expert, but dieting will always be hard for most people. Losing weight can be achieved by slightly eliminating foods that aid in gaining weight e.g. bread, potatoes, rice, pizza & sugar for starters, coupled with a daily exercise routine.

Habs4ever wrote:
Interesting thought about an eating plan that fits all of your requirements. I don't think it's possible because, again my opinion, people want to lose weight yet they don't want to give up foods they enjoy for very long if at all.

I agree with this.

I'd love to lose 5 more pounds but I don't want to give up cinnamon buns. So, do I really want to lose 5 more pounds? Probably not, if I was really serious about it, I would be willing to give up cinnamon buns.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby Jwolf » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:47 pm

I was mostly interested in the biochemistry part of it where she was talking about how your caloric need actually changes if you have gone from being a much higher weight to a lower weight. It's like we want to yell out "it's not fair!" but at least if we know, we can make adjustments to our caloric intake. I find it tough, though-- especially if I'm trying to keep fueled for runs. And I have to keep my brain fueled so I can pretend like I know what I'm talking about at work.

Since "fasting" simply refers to periods of not eating, it is correct to use the term to describe periods of not eating within a 24-hour periods. Some religious fasts are from sunrise to sunset, and technically we fast every night while we are sleeping (hence the term "breakfast"). Some people use intermittent fasting for weight loss by full-day fasts (for example 2 24-hour fasts within a week), others do the longer periods of no eating within each day. While it is sort of fad diet thing now, there is some hormonal and biological basis to why it can help some people lose weight.

While I personally wouldn't want to do intermittent fasting the way she does it, I think it's important that she stressed she figured out what works for her -- for her body and and her lifestyle. There are other ways of calorie restricting.

The "fluff" at the beginning of the podcast is sort of standard fare for AMR (although it was longer in this podcast) and I should have referenced the time stamp of the beginning of the actual interview for those who wanted to listen to just that. I find the stuff at the beginning entertaining enough to keep me distracted while running.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby IronColl » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:50 pm

Of course us sciencey people want to know the science!
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby La » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:24 am

Jwolf wrote:I was mostly interested in the biochemistry part of it where she was talking about how your caloric need actually changes if you have gone from being a much higher weight to a lower weight. It's like we want to yell out "it's not fair!" but at least if we know, we can make adjustments to our caloric intake.

AKA, The Biggest Loser Effect. There is definitely scientific study around this.
Habs4ever wrote:
Interesting thought about an eating plan that fits all of your requirements. I don't think it's possible because, again my opinion, people want to lose weight yet they don't want to give up foods they enjoy for very long if at all.

I agree with this.

I'd love to lose 5 more pounds but I don't want to give up cinnamon buns. So, do I really want to lose 5 more pounds? Probably not, if I was really serious about it, I would be willing to give up cinnamon buns.

How often do you have cinnamon buns? ;)

I know what you mean, though. When I was 20 pounds lighter than I am now, I knew that the way I had to eat to maintain that weight was not sustainable for me. It was far too restrictive.

Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to create a caloric deficit that is sustainable, knowing that it won't be a short-term diet, but a way I will need to eat for the rest of my life. It was easier before when both my activity level and resting metabolism were significantly higher. Unfortunately, calorie reduction is the only way to go now.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby La » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:33 am

The other comment I have related to sustainability is the role of willpower (read: The Power of Habit by Charles Duhuigg and Slim By Design by Brian Wansink). Studies show that willpower is not like a muscle that you can exercise (i.e., the more you do it, the better you get at it). It's more like a resource that gets depleted if you use it too much.

Example: we are far less able to resist the cinnamon bun when we have been drawing on our willpower all day (or all week). Eventually, we just cave because we don't have any willpower left. But willpower is not just something related to food - it's all the things in our life that we have to exercise patience about: work, traffic, kids, spouse, parents, etc. Stress and fatigue deplete our willpower. It's far easier to draw on our willpower to resist the cinnamon bun when we are stress free and well rested.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby IronColl » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:51 am

La wrote:The other comment I have related to sustainability is the role of willpower (read: The Power of Habit by Charles Duhuigg and Slim By Design by Brian Wansink). Studies show that willpower is not like a muscle that you can exercise (i.e., the more you do it, the better you get at it). It's more like a resource that gets depleted if you use it too much.

Example: we are far less able to resist the cinnamon bun when we have been drawing on our willpower all day (or all week). Eventually, we just cave because we don't have any willpower left. But willpower is not just something related to food - it's all the things in our life that we have to exercise patience about: work, traffic, kids, spouse, parents, etc. Stress and fatigue deplete our willpower. It's far easier to draw on our willpower to resist the cinnamon bun when we are stress free and well rested.


Originally I disagreed with this, but the more I think about it the more I see it's validity and I can appreciate the perspective.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby deerdree » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:12 am

IronColl wrote:
La wrote:The other comment I have related to sustainability is the role of willpower (read: The Power of Habit by Charles Duhuigg and Slim By Design by Brian Wansink). Studies show that willpower is not like a muscle that you can exercise (i.e., the more you do it, the better you get at it). It's more like a resource that gets depleted if you use it too much.

Example: we are far less able to resist the cinnamon bun when we have been drawing on our willpower all day (or all week). Eventually, we just cave because we don't have any willpower left. But willpower is not just something related to food - it's all the things in our life that we have to exercise patience about: work, traffic, kids, spouse, parents, etc. Stress and fatigue deplete our willpower. It's far easier to draw on our willpower to resist the cinnamon bun when we are stress free and well rested.


Originally I disagreed with this, but the more I think about it the more I see it's validity and I can appreciate the perspective.

i can neither agree nor disagree until the read the original studies. :lol: that's my general response whenever "studies show..." something.

i haven't listened to the podcast (i can't get into podcasts!! i wish i could, since i have a relatively long walking commute!), but i've found this thread quite interesting. i'd be curious to know more about why scrummy thinks IF is crap, because i think she's much better informed on this subject than i am. unfortunately i know that her RM time has been limited....

IF makes sense to me intuitively. i'd b interested in learning how we fell into a "breakfast, lunch and dinner" pattern. if it's an arbitrary social convention, i see no issues with shaking it up. i know there have been countless opinions (and likely studies) written about the ideal timing of food. three big meals, 6 small snacks, etc. - and they all seem to contradict each other, so i think it pretty much comes down to "whatever works for you". in that sense, i have no concerns about IF being unhealthy. but i'd be curious to hear from folks who have explored these issues.

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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby ultraslacker » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:46 am

I haven't read the original studies but I've read about them in multiple places--including the Power of Habit (which La mentioned) as well as Dan Ariely's work (Ariely's usually the one DOING these types of studies, and also he's just awesome).

I first heard of intermittent fasting via Tim Ferriss, who is an advocate. But he's one of those people who does extreme experiments on his body so I'm cautious about following his advice. His slow-carb diet (which I tried last year but wasn't able to sustain) does seem to be effective if you can stick to it, but it does not include intermittent fasting.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby La » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:00 pm

deerdree wrote:
IronColl wrote:
La wrote:The other comment I have related to sustainability is the role of willpower (read: The Power of Habit by Charles Duhuigg and Slim By Design by Brian Wansink). Studies show that willpower is not like a muscle that you can exercise (i.e., the more you do it, the better you get at it). It's more like a resource that gets depleted if you use it too much.

Example: we are far less able to resist the cinnamon bun when we have been drawing on our willpower all day (or all week). Eventually, we just cave because we don't have any willpower left. But willpower is not just something related to food - it's all the things in our life that we have to exercise patience about: work, traffic, kids, spouse, parents, etc. Stress and fatigue deplete our willpower. It's far easier to draw on our willpower to resist the cinnamon bun when we are stress free and well rested.


Originally I disagreed with this, but the more I think about it the more I see it's validity and I can appreciate the perspective.

i can neither agree nor disagree until the read the original studies. :lol: that's my general response whenever "studies show..." something.

Brian Wansink is the founder and director of the Food & Brand Lab at Cornell University. He's a behavioural scientist who conducts research on eating behaviour. His other book is Mindless Eating.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby deerdree » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:19 pm

La wrote:
deerdree wrote:
IronColl wrote:
La wrote:The other comment I have related to sustainability is the role of willpower (read: The Power of Habit by Charles Duhuigg and Slim By Design by Brian Wansink). Studies show that willpower is not like a muscle that you can exercise (i.e., the more you do it, the better you get at it). It's more like a resource that gets depleted if you use it too much.

Example: we are far less able to resist the cinnamon bun when we have been drawing on our willpower all day (or all week). Eventually, we just cave because we don't have any willpower left. But willpower is not just something related to food - it's all the things in our life that we have to exercise patience about: work, traffic, kids, spouse, parents, etc. Stress and fatigue deplete our willpower. It's far easier to draw on our willpower to resist the cinnamon bun when we are stress free and well rested.


Originally I disagreed with this, but the more I think about it the more I see it's validity and I can appreciate the perspective.

i can neither agree nor disagree until the read the original studies. :lol: that's my general response whenever "studies show..." something.

Brian Wansink is the founder and director of the Food & Brand Lab at Cornell University. He's a behavioural scientist who conducts research on eating behaviour. His other book is Mindless Eating.

thanks, that helps me track down the studies. is he the one who argues that willpower is a finite resource? i can't find the study that examines that - just that the environment might play a bigger role than willpower (or self-control). he has a ton of published studies, though, so i've only skimmed so far.

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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby La » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:46 pm

deerdree wrote:
La wrote:
deerdree wrote:
IronColl wrote:
La wrote:The other comment I have related to sustainability is the role of willpower (read: The Power of Habit by Charles Duhuigg and Slim By Design by Brian Wansink). Studies show that willpower is not like a muscle that you can exercise (i.e., the more you do it, the better you get at it). It's more like a resource that gets depleted if you use it too much.

Example: we are far less able to resist the cinnamon bun when we have been drawing on our willpower all day (or all week). Eventually, we just cave because we don't have any willpower left. But willpower is not just something related to food - it's all the things in our life that we have to exercise patience about: work, traffic, kids, spouse, parents, etc. Stress and fatigue deplete our willpower. It's far easier to draw on our willpower to resist the cinnamon bun when we are stress free and well rested.


Originally I disagreed with this, but the more I think about it the more I see it's validity and I can appreciate the perspective.

i can neither agree nor disagree until the read the original studies. :lol: that's my general response whenever "studies show..." something.

Brian Wansink is the founder and director of the Food & Brand Lab at Cornell University. He's a behavioural scientist who conducts research on eating behaviour. His other book is Mindless Eating.

thanks, that helps me track down the studies. is he the one who argues that willpower is a finite resource? i can't find the study that examines that - just that the environment might play a bigger role than willpower (or self-control). he has a ton of published studies, though, so i've only skimmed so far.

I can't remember if it was Wansink or Duhuigg who wrote about it. I think I got turned on to both of their books via James Clear's blog. He references something called "decision fatigue" in this article. http://jamesclear.com/willpower-decision-fatigue
And also references a few other studies in this article: http://jamesclear.com/choice-architecture There's a section called The Willpower Muscle.
There are links to all his sources.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby La » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:49 pm

Lots of great study links in this article: http://jamesclear.com/willpower
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby deerdree » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:49 pm

La wrote:I can't remember if it was Wansink or Duhuigg who wrote about it. I think I got turned on to both of their books via James Clear's blog. He references something called "decision fatigue" in this article. http://jamesclear.com/willpower-decision-fatigue
And also references a few other studies in this article: http://jamesclear.com/choice-architecture There's a section called The Willpower Muscle.
There are links to all his sources.

awesome, thanks! i'm very curious about the methodology you would use to measure this (but most of psychology is fascinating to me!).

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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby La » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:51 pm

deerdree wrote:thanks, that helps me track down the studies. is he the one who argues that willpower is a finite resource?

I think I mislabeled it as a "finite resource" because that implies that it can't be replenished. What I meant to say is that you can't keep drawing on it without replenishing it.
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Re: "The Secret Life of Fat"

Postby ultraslacker » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:40 pm

deerdree wrote:
La wrote:I can't remember if it was Wansink or Duhuigg who wrote about it. I think I got turned on to both of their books via James Clear's blog. He references something called "decision fatigue" in this article. http://jamesclear.com/willpower-decision-fatigue
And also references a few other studies in this article: http://jamesclear.com/choice-architecture There's a section called The Willpower Muscle.
There are links to all his sources.

awesome, thanks! i'm very curious about the methodology you would use to measure this (but most of psychology is fascinating to me!).


check this one: http://danariely.com/2012/11/12/new-atd ... esnt-work/

(I haven't listened to it but I imagine it will describe the experiments that Ariely talks about in his books)
"You're an ultrarunner, normal rules don't apply to you." (Doonst)


First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ~Epictetus


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