Duathlon Pacing Question

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HCcD
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby HCcD » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:36 am

Pat Menzies wrote: A sprint Duathlon is about comparable to a 15km-half race in duration and intensity so the effort level you can sustain for that time is what you end up doing.
You can be a bit more reckless in the first run portion because there is some actual recovery time in the transition zone and most bike courses will offer areas where you can enhance your recovery on the bike. If you actually went "all out" you would be feeling like you just finished a 5km race.



As it turned out, I indavertently followed Pat's theory to a "T" this weekend ... :shock: :shifty: First run (only 2K) was pretty well at my current 5K pace .. but, I ended up wasting over a minute in T1, messin' around with my bike computer ... and got passed by a lot of people in the T-Zone :doh: :wall: :doh: ... as for the bike, just rode it as a hard tempo, one minute up to 38kph and next minute going at 21kph .... and, as for the final 5K, second run, just fell into my usual happy steady tempo (err, marathon goal pace) effort ... I will have another 1 or 2 more sprint duathlons in August to tweek things out, however ... :shifty: :wink:
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby Double Bellybuster » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:45 pm

HCmD wrote:As it turned out, I indavertently followed Pat's theory to a "T" this weekend ...


So did this work well - or did you leave time on the course?

Thanks.
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby HCcD » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:08 pm

Double Bellybuster wrote:
HCmD wrote:As it turned out, I indavertently followed Pat's theory to a "T" this weekend ...


So did this work well - or did you leave time on the course?

Thanks.


Could've and shuold've ran a lot faster on the second run, but I just did not have the sense of urgency to do so .... And, yes, could hammer out the first run a bit harder and ease/recover on the first few minutes on the bike, by spinning with a lower gearing ..... May try that out in Brockville in a week and change ... :shifty: :wink:

This was my first DU (and brick) since last year, and wasn't sure where my fitness (bike fitness) was at, based on my limited training this season ... :shifty: :oops:
Race Results: http://itsmyrun.com/index.php?display=p ... unner=HCiD

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Bracebridge Sprint Duathlon

Postby Double Bellybuster » Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:19 pm

Input was great guys and gals, thanks. I finished just in the top half today (27/59) in my Duathlon debut based solely on the running. My results reflect that I am a newbie cyclist - versus those with similar overall times I made up 7 minutes versus the field in the 7.5K of running and 1 minute in transitions to offset 8 minutes lost in the 20K of cycling.

Glad I was not more tentative in the running, and this is thanks largely to the experience shared here. I gave 'er on the runs and it did not impact my cycling speed.

DB
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby दिवंगत » Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:33 pm

Sweet! :)

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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby DougG » Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:59 pm

Well done! Where was your race?
2014
injured
2013
Snowflake 10k....stopped at 5k
Rest of the year a write off because of injury.
2012
Snowflake 10k Jan 1 done
Run 4 Kids 10k Jan 7 done
Harry's Spring Run Off 8k. April 8 a disaster, but I finished
Centurion 50k at Horseshoe Valley (cycling) done
Centurion 50 miler at Blue Mountain (cycling) done.....barely!
Snowflake 5k, Dec 16 - done
2011
Harry Rosen 8k. April. done
Rotary 5k fun run. May. done
CANI 10k. June. done
Canada Day 10k. July. done
Barrie Waterfront 5k. Aug. done
CANI 10 k. Oct. done
Base Borden Army Run 10k. done

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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby Double Bellybuster » Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:11 pm

DougG wrote:Well done! Where was your race?


Thanks. Bracebridge. Nice event there.
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby eljeffe » Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:23 pm

Right on! Hammer time! Shake and bake! :twisted: :mrgreen:

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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby Double Bellybuster » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:38 pm

eljef-fe wrote:Right on! Hammer time! Shake and bake! :twisted: :mrgreen:


So I have my second Duathlon this weekend. This time, the significantly longer run is at the back end - 2.5K Run then 23K bike then 7.5K run. Should this change my approach at all?

I am thinking a tempo pace for the first 2.5K versus all out would only give up a minute but save my legs for a stronger 7.5K finishing leg, potentially at the same pace.

Thanks.
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby eljeffe » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:44 am

Double Bellybuster wrote:
eljef-fe wrote:Right on! Hammer time! Shake and bake! :twisted: :mrgreen:


So I have my second Duathlon this weekend. This time, the significantly longer run is at the back end - 2.5K Run then 23K bike then 7.5K run. Should this change my approach at all?

I am thinking a tempo pace for the first 2.5K versus all out would only give up a minute but save my legs for a stronger 7.5K finishing leg, potentially at the same pace.

Thanks.


That one is a bit tougher, but I'd think if you ran it right you'd hit a pace similar to or just below 10k race pace. I did a triathlon last year with an 8k run at the end (2 loops). Since I had ridden the 40k ride so hard (35kph), I took the first loop a bit easy (4:10/k), and hammered out the second loop. I ended up at 3:58/k which is a bit slower than my 10k race pace. I'm planning on using the same strategy this year, since it worked pretty well.

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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby Pat Menzies » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:33 pm

I hope this wildly conflicting advice is working out for some positive racing experience.
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby eljeffe » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:49 pm

Pat Menzies wrote: experience.


+1. Good luck and go get some great experience!

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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby Double Bellybuster » Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:57 am

Pat Menzies wrote:I hope this wildly conflicting advice is working out for some positive racing experience.


It is. Compared to a running-only road race, where I know what my final time will be within 1-2% before the gun goes off, I really have no idea what will happen in the Multsport races and just have fun with it.

Thanks all.
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby Pat Menzies » Fri Aug 20, 2010 7:54 am

Double Bellybuster wrote:
Pat Menzies wrote:I hope this wildly conflicting advice is working out for some positive racing experience.


It is. Compared to a running-only road race, where I know what my final time will be within 1-2% before the gun goes off, I really have no idea what will happen in the Multsport races and just have fun with it.

Thanks all.

This is certainly the best way to keep that mystery alive. As soon as you start racing smart, you'll be able to know the same thing about a Du as you do about a running race. With allowance for the horrendously measured run courses at a typical Du.
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby दिवंगत » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:12 am

Pat Menzies wrote:
Double Bellybuster wrote:
Pat Menzies wrote:I hope this wildly conflicting advice is working out for some positive racing experience.


It is. Compared to a running-only road race, where I know what my final time will be within 1-2% before the gun goes off, I really have no idea what will happen in the Multsport races and just have fun with it.

Thanks all.

This is certainly the best way to keep that mystery alive. As soon as you start racing smart, you'll be able to know the same thing about a Du as you do about a running race. With allowance for the horrendously measured run courses at a typical Du.

My first reaction to Pat's comment was :roll: but actually there's a really good point buried in there. For sprint distances, and the OP was originally about a very short sprint distance race, there's much less, if any, need to pace very much if you're in the right shape to race that way.

However, multi-sport is just that - you have to look at the race as a whole. Try to approach your races as a single event, not three events, and judge your effort/pace/PE across the whole race based on your level of fitness. Pat's right in the sense that when you get good at that, you will be able to predict your times for these events very closely. It take practice and experience (Jeff's point), but when you get there, racing becomes a little more exciting inasmuch as now you can have a target, and the challenge becomes hitting that target.

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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby La » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:32 am

Pat Menzies wrote:With allowance for the horrendously measured run courses at a typical Du.

This is also a very important point. Other than at Ironman, I think every Tri I've been in has not been accurately measured, so take your times with a grain of salt. They do the best they can, but don't have an expectation that they'll be right. Racing by perceived exertion might be a better approach than looking at pace times/splits.

Another point to build on what Mark/Pat have said, depending on which Duathlon series you are doing you could have the longer of the two runs either first or last (or maybe they're about the same - every race has their own thing), and that will change your strategy, too.
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby eljeffe » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:35 am

My approach wouldn't be the same for a race featuring a 7.5k end segment as it would in a race with a 2.5k end segment. There's likely going to be much more fading in a 7.5k all out run, than there would be in 2.5k all out run, and that fade would likely produce diminishing returns, hence why'd I'd run the first part conservatively. I've had good results racing smart in longer races, but with shorter races, my best results are from where I raced dumb and put it all out there.

A recent 5k from 2 weeks ago comes to mind - I tried to "race smart" and lost. Had I ran as hard as I could without all the other posturing BS I probably would have won. But the result is added to my experience and I don't usually make the same mistake twice in racing.

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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby Pat Menzies » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:46 am

The distance of a race or a leg of a race has nothing to do with fading if you're prepared properly for that race and race it smart.
Racing smart and posturing BS sounds a bit like a contradiction.
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby tonyP » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:45 pm

Not to hijack this thread, but,

How would this apply to the swim segment of a triathlon?

I've read that as a triathlete, my job is to get out of the water with the lowest possible heart rate. I could expend huge amounts of energy in the swim, only to gain a minimal amount of time, due to the physics involved.

Contrast that to the Sprint distances mentioned above, where we are talking all out efforts in both (du) so, say all (tri) disciplines.

Bottom line, sprint tri, swim all out, or pace myself - call it a "tempo" (moderately hard) effort?

Enquiring minds just have to know....

Thanks all, appreciate your thoughts.

Tony

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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby tonyP » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:50 pm

And while I'm at it...

Clipless shoes & pedals vs running shoes & cages for a sprint tri - for 20K is it worth the extra time in T2 to go clipless. I can pedal full circle in the cages....

(p.s. I have converted to clipless for longer distances including my 1st 1/2 iron earlier this year, thanks in part to the input from the folks here - and I do appreciate the input)

Again, thanks, i appreciate your thoughts.

Tony

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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby Double Bellybuster » Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:56 pm

tonyP wrote:Clipless shoes & pedals vs running shoes & cages for a sprint tri - for 20K is it worth the extra time in T2 to go clipless. I can pedal full circle in the cages....


Hopefully someone can help with the cages versus clipless but on a related note, here was a recent discussion on wetsuit or not for a Sprint Triathlon:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39378
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby दिवंगत » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:05 pm

tonyP wrote:I've read... get out of the water with the lowest possible heart rate.

Your job is to get out of the water with the lowest possible time.

I don't think that spiking HR in the swim is necessarily bad for the rest of the race if you're in good enough shape to recover your HR in T1. In fact, your HR is more likely spike during the run to T1. Of course, if you're not in good enough shape relative to the effort level you put out, all bets are off.

I am usually in the minority with dispensed pacing advice, so take this advice in that context. :wink:
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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby दिवंगत » Sat Aug 21, 2010 9:06 pm

tonyP wrote:Clipless shoes & pedals vs running shoes & cages for a sprint tri - for 20K is it worth the extra time in T2 to go clipless. I can pedal full circle in the cages....

Yes, it is worth the extra time.

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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby eljeffe » Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:56 am

I agree with Mark regarding swimming. I've recently noticed my heart rate is in the top 2 zones when I come out of the swim, but that has no effect on the other 2 portions of my race. Even in Ironman, over an hour of swimming hard had little effect on my energy level. Swim hard, it'll be over fast, and you get a minute recovery interval in transition.

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Re: Duathlon Pacing Question

Postby Double Bellybuster » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:23 pm

Double Bellybuster wrote:I am thinking a tempo pace for the first 2.5K versus all out would only give up a minute but save my legs for a stronger 7.5K finishing leg, potentially at the same pace.


I ran the opening 2.5K just under my Half Marathon Pace, hoping this would leave me energy for the same pace in the back 7.5K but surely enough for Marathon pace. This seemed to be the right approach, I slowed a bit on the 7.5K to midway between Half and Marathon pace but the this leg was very hilly and I made a wrong turn that lengthened my run. So I think I hit it about right.

Thanks all for your input!
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