On the topic of cheating in races

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On the topic of cheating in races

Postby La » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:13 pm

I just read this interesting story in The Toronto Star about the Ottawa doctor who was brought up on charges of mixing up sperm and impregnating the wrong women with it. Seems he cheated in the Boston Marathon, as well as the Ottawa Marathon!

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/02 ... manno.html

A physical fitness enthusiast, Barwin ran the Boston Marathon in 2000. Though only a novice marathoner, he posted an excellent time of 3:17, 14th-best in his age group of men 60-69. He’d qualified for the lustrous Boston event with a time of less than three hours at the earlier Royal Victoria Marathon in B.C., his first-ever full 42k race.
[...]
Something wasn’t right about Barwin, as the Ottawa Citizen’s Glen McGregor detailed in a lengthy investigative article. The reporter quoted from a letter Boston race director Guy Morse sent to Barwin three days after the event: “You failed to appear at multiple checkpoints along the marathon route. Please provide this office with any information that may be helpful to assist in authenticating that you did run the entire marathon course, including type of clothing worn, other visual identification, split times, companion runners, etc.”

Within a month, Barwin was officially disqualified. He would not be allowed to run the Boston Marathon again.
[...]
Yet a year later, Barwin was caught cheating again at the National Capital Marathon in Ottawa. He finished first in his age group with a time of 3:04. Evidence scrutinized later showed Barwin had failed to complete the second lap of the two-circuit route. The hernia problem had struck once more, he maintained afterward, so he’d pulled out near the midway point of the second lap. “I limped straight off the race. I assumed I wasn’t going to be included in the results.” He had, however, joined the race again one kilometre from the finish line, allegedly to run alongside a training partner. Barwin told the Citizen he’d informed officials that he hadn’t completed the course and asked to be removed from the results, though that couldn’t be confirmed.
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby Irongirl » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:14 pm

ha. crazy.
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby turd ferguson » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:29 pm

He inseminated his patients with his own sperm - okay, we've all done that once or twice.

AND HE CHEATED AT RACES????? Draw and quarter the scoundrel!!!
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby canalrunner » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:58 pm

turd ferguson wrote:He inseminated his patients with his own sperm - okay, we've all done that once or twice.

AND HE CHEATED AT RACES????? Draw and quarter the scoundrel!!!


I agree. The first was just affecting people"s lives and their future generations. The second was messing with Sportstats, the glory of a possible AG finish and the chance to mount the podium at the ORW awards ceremony before tens of people---several whom would actually be paying attention. Digusting behaviour. I am just glad this sort of things is covered in the new crime bill. Shame!!! Never mess with Sportstats.
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby La » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:01 pm

The point I was trying to make was neatly summed up in the closing paragraphs of the article:
“It’s really very embarrassing for me,” said Barwin. “It was quite out of character, I promise you.”

Really? It seems entirely within character, I’d say.

Didn’t mean it . . . never meant to . . . sorry.

Barwin assumed the same benign posture in his terse statement last week to the College panel, with much more at stake than false glory.

“I regret that I’ve caused these patients any difficulties. My interest was always to do the best for them.”

So, when people ask, "Does it really matter if someone cheats in a race? Who is it going to hurt?" Well, maybe those people are dishonest or negligent in other parts of their lives, too! ;)
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby ultraslacker » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:12 pm

La wrote:So, when people ask, "Does it really matter if someone cheats in a race? Who is it going to hurt?" Well, maybe those people are dishonest or negligent in other parts of their lives, too! ;)


no maybe about it... if a person doesn't have integrity, they don't have integrity.
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby turd ferguson » Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:34 pm

La wrote:The point I was trying to make was neatly summed up in the closing paragraphs of the article:
“It’s really very embarrassing for me,” said Barwin. “It was quite out of character, I promise you.”

Really? It seems entirely within character, I’d say.

Didn’t mean it . . . never meant to . . . sorry.

Barwin assumed the same benign posture in his terse statement last week to the College panel, with much more at stake than false glory.

“I regret that I’ve caused these patients any difficulties. My interest was always to do the best for them.”

So, when people ask, "Does it really matter if someone cheats in a race? Who is it going to hurt?" Well, maybe those people are dishonest or negligent in other parts of their lives, too! ;)


Sorry - I wasn't meaning to pick on you. Its the Star that gives me the giggles from time to time.
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby ian » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:48 pm

ultraslacker wrote:
La wrote:So, when people ask, "Does it really matter if someone cheats in a race? Who is it going to hurt?" Well, maybe those people are dishonest or negligent in other parts of their lives, too! ;)

no maybe about it... if a person doesn't have integrity, they don't have integrity.

More generally, I find that there's a pretty solid correlation between peoples' "running persona" (e.g., things like training style, gear, goals) and their day job. I can only think of a couple of instances where I knew someone first as a runner, eventually found out what they did for a living, and was surprised by it.

(This has the makings of a prime-time forensics show: a pair of detectives combing through running logs to figure out the identity of a serial killer, all the while firing off snappy one-liners.)

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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby Dstew » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:17 pm

ultraslacker wrote:
La wrote:So, when people ask, "Does it really matter if someone cheats in a race? Who is it going to hurt?" Well, maybe those people are dishonest or negligent in other parts of their lives, too! ;)


no maybe about it... if a person doesn't have integrity, they don't have integrity.


That may be true but ... if you have posted on runningmania.com during your working hours, you are technically a cheat. It is estimated that about 10% of people will cheat always, 10% will never cheat and the rest apply situational ethics. I am not really stealing from my employer because I come in early is one example. So someone who cheats at running may be a perfectly ethical person in the rest of their endeavors. Probabilities will suggest that if you cheat several times in running events that you may not have high moral standards.

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On the topic of cheating in races

Postby Jwolf » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:24 pm

Dstew wrote:
ultraslacker wrote:
La wrote:So, when people ask, "Does it really matter if someone cheats in a race? Who is it going to hurt?" Well, maybe those people are dishonest or negligent in other parts of their lives, too! ;)


no maybe about it... if a person doesn't have integrity, they don't have integrity.


That may be true but ... if you have posted on runningmania.com during your working hours, you are technically a cheat. It is estimated that about 10% of people will cheat always, 10% will never cheat and the rest apply situational ethics. I am not really stealing from my employer because I come in early is one example. So someone who cheats at running may be a perfectly ethical person in the rest of their endeavors. Probabilities will suggest that if you cheat several times in running events that you may not have high moral standards.

Not all people's jobs are the same, so please don't make blanket statements.
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby Dstew » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:20 am

Jwolf wrote:
Dstew wrote:
ultraslacker wrote:
La wrote:So, when people ask, "Does it really matter if someone cheats in a race? Who is it going to hurt?" Well, maybe those people are dishonest or negligent in other parts of their lives, too! ;)


no maybe about it... if a person doesn't have integrity, they don't have integrity.


That may be true but ... if you have posted on runningmania.com during your working hours, you are technically a cheat. It is estimated that about 10% of people will cheat always, 10% will never cheat and the rest apply situational ethics. I am not really stealing from my employer because I come in early is one example. So someone who cheats at running may be a perfectly ethical person in the rest of their endeavors. Probabilities will suggest that if you cheat several times in running events that you may not have high moral standards.

Not all people's jobs are the same, so please don't make blanket statements.


Ironic you missed the point I was making about making blanket statements with regards to if someone cheats in one aspect of their lives that they must cheat in all aspects of their lives. My guess is that you have not read many corporate guidelines and my guess is also that most people would not be telling their bosses that they are updating their status on a running website during working hours using company property because they know that if it is not "stealing " it would likely be looked upon as if it were. And you have missed the bigger point that it is very easy to find ethical faults in others but overlook what we do ourselves and use rationalizations and justifications to suggest we can judge because we are perfect.

I personally do not cheat in races but not because I stand on some self righteous moral high ground but because I see no purpose in it. I train to see how fast I can complete a certain distance so why would I run less as that proves or shows nothing. Plus I made it to Boston twice with some hard work, innate ability and a lot of luck so I accept it is easy for me to say I would not cheat but I can see where someone with self confidence or self esteem issues may make an exception to an otherwise solid ethical foundation to reach that goal. I do not condone or support such actions but neither am I going to write off an entire human because of one or two mistakes. They did a bad thing and if caught should suffer the full extent of the punishment but I am not perfect so I will not go so far as to make the logical fallacy using that to attack the person's entire character. It may well be that it is not an isolated issue and in that case, fair enough but to extrapolate that cheating in a completely meaningless recreational road race means one should not be bonded for example is illogical and frankly irrational.

This comes from a course I took where everyone was asked if they had ever stolen from the company. Everyone said no and they were not lying, they were merely deluded. The next question was did you ever take home a pen, use the internet a little longer than you should have, used company postage. Literally everyone answered yes but I come in early, it was only a very cheap pen and a hundred rationalizations and justifications. Welcome to the world of situational ethics. Embezzle $20,000 or take the 25 cent pen, a court or the company will not treat them the same and nor should they but technically, they are both stealing. I apologize if I shattered an illusion as it does seem I hit a sore spot.

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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby DougG » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:39 am

ultraslacker wrote:
La wrote:So, when people ask, "Does it really matter if someone cheats in a race? Who is it going to hurt?" Well, maybe those people are dishonest or negligent in other parts of their lives, too! ;)


no maybe about it... if a person doesn't have integrity, they don't have integrity.


Well said Holly.
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby canalrunner » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:30 am

DougG wrote:
ultraslacker wrote:
La wrote:So, when people ask, "Does it really matter if someone cheats in a race? Who is it going to hurt?" Well, maybe those people are dishonest or negligent in other parts of their lives, too! ;)


no maybe about it... if a person doesn't have integrity, they don't have integrity.


Well said Holly.


I thought you said Holy. :D

Not sure it is so cut and dry. Who knows what motivates people to do things. It is disappointing when people cheat, because we all expect better of others and of ourselves. In that respect, not sure any of us is running "clean".
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby DougG » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:37 am

canalrunner wrote:
DougG wrote:
ultraslacker wrote:
La wrote:So, when people ask, "Does it really matter if someone cheats in a race? Who is it going to hurt?" Well, maybe those people are dishonest or negligent in other parts of their lives, too! ;)


no maybe about it... if a person doesn't have integrity, they don't have integrity.


Well said Holly.


I thought you said Holy. :D

Not sure it is so cut and dry. Who knows what motivates people to do things. It is disappointing when people cheat, because we all expect better of others and of ourselves. In that respect, not sure any of us is running "clean".


To me she is holy. :D :wink:
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injured
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Snowflake 10k....stopped at 5k
Rest of the year a write off because of injury.
2012
Snowflake 10k Jan 1 done
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Centurion 50k at Horseshoe Valley (cycling) done
Centurion 50 miler at Blue Mountain (cycling) done.....barely!
Snowflake 5k, Dec 16 - done
2011
Harry Rosen 8k. April. done
Rotary 5k fun run. May. done
CANI 10k. June. done
Canada Day 10k. July. done
Barrie Waterfront 5k. Aug. done
CANI 10 k. Oct. done
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby O Z D » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:39 am

Dstew wrote:
ultraslacker wrote:
La wrote:So, when people ask, "Does it really matter if someone cheats in a race? Who is it going to hurt?" Well, maybe those people are dishonest or negligent in other parts of their lives, too! ;)


no maybe about it... if a person doesn't have integrity, they don't have integrity.


That may be true but ... if you have posted on runningmania.com during your working hours, you are technically a cheat. It is estimated that about 10% of people will cheat always, 10% will never cheat and the rest apply situational ethics. I am not really stealing from my employer because I come in early is one example. So someone who cheats at running may be a perfectly ethical person in the rest of their endeavors. Probabilities will suggest that if you cheat several times in running events that you may not have high moral standards.


You are of course making an assumption that I don't work for myself, or that I am on a break posting from my phone, or that I work for a running company that encourages us to post on Running related website during business hours.

Blanket statements are usually based on ignorance and lack of research.

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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby drghfx » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:58 pm

O Z D wrote:
Dstew wrote:
ultraslacker wrote:
La wrote:So, when people ask, "Does it really matter if someone cheats in a race? Who is it going to hurt?" Well, maybe those people are dishonest or negligent in other parts of their lives, too! ;)


no maybe about it... if a person doesn't have integrity, they don't have integrity.


That may be true but ... if you have posted on runningmania.com during your working hours, you are technically a cheat. It is estimated that about 10% of people will cheat always, 10% will never cheat and the rest apply situational ethics. I am not really stealing from my employer because I come in early is one example. So someone who cheats at running may be a perfectly ethical person in the rest of their endeavors. Probabilities will suggest that if you cheat several times in running events that you may not have high moral standards.


You are of course making an assumption that I don't work for myself, or that I am on a break posting from my phone, or that I work for a running company that encourages us to post on Running related website during business hours.

Blanket statements are usually based on ignorance and lack of research.

So what do you suggest? When someone makes a blanket statement to illustrate a point they should add a list of a hundred disclaimers or should people realize that yes, it was a blanket statement and it does not apply to everyone?

I would say blanket statements are not based on ignorance at all. - although that is a blanket statement in itself! :D :)
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby turd ferguson » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:24 pm

Dstew wrote:This comes from a course I took where everyone was asked if they had ever stolen from the company. Everyone said no and they were not lying, they were merely deluded. The next question was did you ever take home a pen, use the internet a little longer than you should have, used company postage. Literally everyone answered yes but I come in early, it was only a very cheap pen and a hundred rationalizations and justifications. Welcome to the world of situational ethics. Embezzle $20,000 or take the 25 cent pen, a court or the company will not treat them the same and nor should they but technically, they are both stealing. I apologize if I shattered an illusion as it does seem I hit a sore spot.


The fact that people disagree with you isn't actually evidence that you're correct.

Anyway, it's 11:20 here, I've got a client due at 11:30, I'm killing the 10 minutes on RM, I might go downstairs and punch a nun because of my situational ethics.
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby O Z D » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:31 pm

drghfx wrote:So what do you suggest? When someone makes a blanket statement to illustrate a point they should add a list of a hundred disclaimers or should people realize that yes, it was a blanket statement and it does not apply to everyone?

I would say blanket statements are not based on ignorance at all. - although that is a blanket statement in itself! :D :)


I would suggest that instead of making blanket statements you argue a point based on actual facts or even your opinions (and point it out so), rather than assumptions & innuendo or inaccurate facts you try to pass off as accurate.

If you can not illustrate your point without making a ridiculous (and inaccurate) blanket statement maybe you should not be making the point.

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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby OLRunner » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:42 pm

google "Kip Litton" for the ultimate in race result fabrication.
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby Irongirl » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:43 pm

OLRunner wrote:google "Kip Litton" for the ultimate in race result fabrication.


this recently came up.

I do find it oddly fascinating how passionate people are with possibly being covered under a blanket statement with respect to cheating......
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby La » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:50 pm

Irongirl wrote:
OLRunner wrote:google "Kip Litton" for the ultimate in race result fabrication.


this recently came up.

I do find it oddly fascinating how passionate people are with possibly being covered under a blanket statement with respect to cheating......

Even Lance Armstrong pulled out the Websters' dictionary definition in his interview with Oprah (to defend why he hadn't thought that he was cheating when he doped).

Lots of people cheat in lots of big/little ways. I drive over the speed limit. I use company resources (e.g., printer, leftover binders, computer) for my own purposes. But we each have our "lines" we won't cross, and a whole web of rationalizations as to why we draw those lines where we do.
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby turd ferguson » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:53 pm

Irongirl wrote:
OLRunner wrote:google "Kip Litton" for the ultimate in race result fabrication.


this recently came up.

I do find it oddly fascinating how passionate people are with possibly being covered under a blanket statement with respect to cheating......


People don't like being accused of being dishonest. This is a surprise?
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby Irongirl » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:24 pm

turd ferguson wrote:
Irongirl wrote:
OLRunner wrote:google "Kip Litton" for the ultimate in race result fabrication.


this recently came up.

I do find it oddly fascinating how passionate people are with possibly being covered under a blanket statement with respect to cheating......


People don't like being accused of being dishonest. This is a surprise?


It's more the fact that no one was specifically mentioned.....not sure how to explain my odd fascination with the passion that I see.

I've been dishonest in my life. I have nothing to add to this conversation. :P
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby turd ferguson » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:33 pm

Irongirl wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:
Irongirl wrote:
OLRunner wrote:google "Kip Litton" for the ultimate in race result fabrication.


this recently came up.

I do find it oddly fascinating how passionate people are with possibly being covered under a blanket statement with respect to cheating......


People don't like being accused of being dishonest. This is a surprise?


It's more the fact that no one was specifically mentioned.....not sure how to explain my odd fascination with the passion that I see.

I've been dishonest in my life. I have nothing to add to this conversation. :P


I only got prickly when the moral equivalencies started.

Hey, while we're on it, can anyone with better google-fu than me find the ultimate cheat thread on RM - the thread about the guy whose name shall not be spoken riding the TTC to the finish?
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Re: On the topic of cheating in races

Postby La » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:35 pm

turd ferguson wrote:
Irongirl wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:
Irongirl wrote:
OLRunner wrote:google "Kip Litton" for the ultimate in race result fabrication.


this recently came up.

I do find it oddly fascinating how passionate people are with possibly being covered under a blanket statement with respect to cheating......


People don't like being accused of being dishonest. This is a surprise?


It's more the fact that no one was specifically mentioned.....not sure how to explain my odd fascination with the passion that I see.

I've been dishonest in my life. I have nothing to add to this conversation. :P


I only got prickly when the moral equivalencies started.

Hey, while we're on it, can anyone with better google-fu than me find the ultimate cheat thread on RM - the thread about the guy whose name shall not be spoken riding the TTC to the finish?

You mean H-A-M-P-O? Is his name still ****'d out? *****.

ETA: it's still ****'d out.
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