Tempo Run ?

[fe.RMT]

For me, comfortably hard usually equates to a 3/3 breathing pattern: three steps breathing in, three steps breathing out. I can do this pattern on 'two extremes - on the one end it comes 'easily' and on the other end 3/3 is more work. I try to start the tempo run on the 'easy 3/3' and work my way to harder 3/3. I find this generally hits my pace range pretty well.

[Nicholas]

Everyone seems to be talking about paces/km or mile for their tempo runs. Shouldn't there be a factor of exertion (either by HR or PE) in there? What if that "pace" you've been running no longer equates to a tempo pace because it's either too fast or too slow for your current fitness level? People seem to be pulling paces off a chart based on what their goal race pace is. That might not be realistic.

Well put. Ideally, one can have some intermittent races or time trials to gauge one's current fitness level so that the training paces are appropriate. Also, an experienced runner tends to get a feel for the right exertion level for a tempo run.

This is what is meant by "training forward". You base your paces on current fitness rather than on an arbitrary race target time. Using the TM in the winter I will find a Tempo pace that feels "right" to start with and then try to speed it up a bit every three or four weeks.

[ian]

For me, comfortably hard usually equates to a 3/3 breathing pattern: three steps breathing in, three steps breathing out. I can do this pattern on 'two extremes - on the one end it comes 'easily' and on the other end 3/3 is more work. I try to start the tempo run on the 'easy 3/3' and work my way to harder 3/3. I find this generally hits my pace range pretty well.

I'm glad you brought this up, as I have also found breathing patterns to be a useful indicator of effort. Two caveats:
(1) The details will vary from person to person, so it is a self-calibration. I've run marathons beside people who were doing 2/2 the whole way.
(2) I find that when I am in really good shape, my legs can get tired before my breathing rate goes up. I'm guessing that this is a distinction between the V02 and lactate systems.

[Jwolf]

[deleted]

[Pat Menzies]

Of course you can only take it so far. It's called your potential.
I'm starting to think the Daniels method is the single greatest limiter of performance out there.
There are many more coaches and methods out there apart from Daniels and Pfitzinger. Plenty of more successful athletes than those that Daniels has advised too. Let's consider them too.

[MichaelMc]

I'm starting to think the Daniels method is the single greatest limiter of performance out there.
There are many more coaches and methods out there apart from Daniels and Pfitzinger. Plenty of more successful athletes than those that Daniels has advised too. Let's consider them too.

You do like to throw out the controversial line, don't you Pat

Seems like a ridiculous statement to me. How is it limiting to measure your current potential, choose a training plan designed to improve it, then measure its effect and update the paces? I have a pool of 14 people training with Daniels plans and every single one of them has shown VERY good improvement, FAR more improvement than the average hard training runner. How many people do you know who are actually following a Daniels plan and seem "limited" by it?

There are plenty of good coaches and good plans out there, I don't think Daniels (or Pfitzinger, or Lydiard, or Hansons etc etc) have a patent on the "right" method. Virtually any well thought out plan that challenges a range of different fitness factors over time, steadily increased, will produce positive results. It isn't rocket science, but it works.

My guess is the biggest limiting factor in training, aside from 'real life', is lack of planning and "just running how you feel". Ask the average guy you meet in a run club who is running about the same speed as he always has, odds are good he's running 'like he feels'.

[QuickChick]

I think Pat's suggestion is to push yourself beyond what you think you can do and not to be married to numbers on a training plan. A valid suggestion, IMO. However, I was under the impression that the Daniels method suggested the slowest pace that will get at your LT because you don't get any more training benefit if you train faster UNTIL your LT is higher. For me, anyway, my tempo pace according to Daniels is certainly not comfortable- it's more like comfortably tough. With the higher mileage the plan suggests, I think it's meant to prevent injury that could result from running harder than you need to run to get your desired result. I can see how you'd get psychological benefit, though, and I certainly believe in pushing beyond my perceived ability on occasion.

[Stella]

All this talk about making yourselves faster runners....does anyone do speed work? The purpose of a tempo run is to build your strength endurance at a "close to" race pace or PE whichever fits. The increased speed should be honed in shorter distance intervals (eg. 1k/1 mi repeats) generally done at a faster pace.

In training for a marathon, I usually do my speed work at my 5k PE pace (or a pace I feel I could hold for 20 mins)

[scrumhalfgirl]

For me, comfortably hard usually equates to a 3/3 breathing pattern: three steps breathing in, three steps breathing out. I can do this pattern on 'two extremes - on the one end it comes 'easily' and on the other end 3/3 is more work. I try to start the tempo run on the 'easy 3/3' and work my way to harder 3/3. I find this generally hits my pace range pretty well.

I'm glad you brought this up, as I have also found breathing patterns to be a useful indicator of effort. Two caveats:
(1) The details will vary from person to person, so it is a self-calibration. I've run marathons beside people who were doing 2/2 the whole way.
(2) I find that when I am in really good shape, my legs can get tired before my breathing rate goes up. I'm guessing that this is a distinction between the V02 and lactate systems.

Really glad to see this discussion. My tri club head coach is a big believer in breathing rate as a way to measure effort. We use this in the coaching we do in spinning, but also to translate into running. He has actually developed a bit of a scale for the different zones related to breathing pattern. It does vary from person to person, but it gives a different kind of metric for people to follow. Unlike heart rate, which is influenced by many factors such as temp, hydration, fatigue etc., breathing tends to be more stable.

[Magoo]

All this talk about making yourselves faster runners....does anyone do speed work? The purpose of a tempo run is to build your strength endurance at a "close to" race pace or PE whichever fits. The increased speed should be honed in shorter distance intervals (eg. 1k/1 mi repeats) generally done at a faster pace.

In training for a marathon, I usually do my speed work at my 5k PE pace (or a pace I feel I could hold for 20 mins)

Shouldn't the speedwork be specific to the race. Would a miler benefit from a fast 20 mile run. I think the shorter intervals are good for shorter races.

[Stella]

I've trained with many track\racing teams in the past and we always had at least 2 weekly sessions. The first one was shorter intervals that generally ranged from 200 m - 400 m and were done at a good hard pace (it was suppose to be 5k but always ended up being faster than that). The second one was longer intervals: 800m to 1600m ranges and were suppose to be done around 10k pace, but similar to the shorter interval stuff, almost always ended up being faster.

My coaches always thought each session was as important as the other, regardless of your target race. The only thing that would be different is that the longer distance athletes would do a longer interval session, meaning the number of repeats were increased (which in the end tends to make you more honest about your pacing)

[Nicholas]

I've trained with many track\racing teams in the past and we always had at least 2 weekly sessions. The first one was shorter intervals that generally ranged from 200 m - 400 m and were done at a good hard pace (it was suppose to be 5k but always ended up being faster than that). The second one was longer intervals: 800m to 1600m ranges and were suppose to be done around 10k pace, but similar to the shorter interval stuff, almost always ended up being faster.

My coaches always thought each session was as important as the other, regardless of your target race. The only thing that would be different is that the longer distance athletes would do a longer interval session, meaning the number of repeats were increased (which in the end tends to make you more honest about your pacing)

They sound pretty close to the paces we have been talking about for VO2Max and Lactate Threshold runs. Except that you keeners pushed the pace into the Grey Zone(s). And, yes, I would agree that both are important. The balance between the sessions, the total duration and the length of the individual "intervals" would be keyed to your racing distance.

[Darth Tater]

Great discussion going on here...I'm learning a lot! Thanks gang.

[Magoo]

I don't think you should discount the grey zone Nick. It does have a place. My dad and some of the veterans in my club spent a decade in the grey zone. Every group run was a race and you didn't give your competition an inch. No one can touch their times these days.

[ian]

I don't think you should discount the grey zone Nick. It does have a place. My dad and some of the veterans in my club spent a decade in the grey zone. Every group run was a race and you didn't give your competition an inch. No one can touch their times these days.

I've been trying to understand Pat's viewpoint on this thread, in the hope of learning something useful, and Magoo's quote gets to a similar point. What I'm coming up with so far is a sort of "survival of the fittest" mentality -- training in the grey zones will make you mentally tough and physically strong if you survive it. I'll have to think about this some more.

[Stella]

Interestingly enough, while training with a racing team pushed me to run faster, my fastest marathon time was accomplished from training on my own. I do think the speed work done with the group had something to do with it (in that I had a bit of base to build on), but I always ended up injured when I ran with them, so my marathons fell apart on me in the tough miles. For the marathon I trained for on my own, I started and finished injury free.

The cause of my injuries are still to be determined (ie whether the pushed speed or the track is the major culprit). We're not all built to run fast in a circle, and I'm hoping Francine will be able to provide me with some good insight during my running assessment follow-up on Friday.

[Nicholas]

I don't think you should discount the grey zone Nick. It does have a place. My dad and some of the veterans in my club spent a decade in the grey zone. Every group run was a race and you didn't give your competition an inch. No one can touch their times these days.

Hey, I'm not discounting it!!! I'm sure all of us do it and I know I have on many, many occasions. The only question is whether it is the most efficient way to improve your speed. I'd love to see us generate some empirical evidence to support (or refute) this. I've been trying to do it for the past while but this tired, old bod has too many other issues for me to know if it is more efficient or not.....

In the past I used to do my speedwork alone for the very reason you mentioned...every session turned into a race. I did it alone and according to plan (well, usually). I did train with a group 5 or 6 years ago but the coach gave us specific times for our track intervals, grouped us according to speed and expected us to stick closely to the planned paces.

You did stir memories of the "old" days with cotton T-shirts & socks and where "upright & smiling" was something you did going into a bar.

[MichaelMc]

I think Pat's suggestion is to push yourself beyond what you think you can do and not to be married to numbers on a training plan. A valid suggestion, IMO. However, I was under the impression that the Daniels method suggested the slowest pace that will get at your LT because you don't get any more training benefit if you train faster UNTIL your LT is higher. For me, anyway, my tempo pace according to Daniels is certainly not comfortable- it's more like comfortably tough. With the higher mileage the plan suggests, I think it's meant to prevent injury that could result from running harder than you need to run to get your desired result. I can see how you'd get psychological benefit, though, and I certainly believe in pushing beyond my perceived ability on occasion.

We can get caught up in the question of whether more people are limiting themselves, or whether more are over-reaching. Pat and I seem to have opposite experiences in this. The thing I appreciate about any systematized training plan is that it allows you some measure of which is happening. I don't get the whole "caught up in numbers" thing myself. Most coaches DO emphasize that individuals vary one to the next, and even day-to-day. If you lose sight of the point of a workout and choose to be a slave to a number, that isn't the coach's fault; the numbers are a GUIDE, not a LAW.

On Threshold workouts Daniels is looking to have you run the pace that you can sustain STEADILY for 'X' period of time, while producing the maximum amount of lactic acid your body can USE. Lactic acid, lets remember, isn't just a waste product, it is actually converted to a FUEL. The object is not to drown your body with lactic acid, but hit a balance where the production and utilization of lactic acid are balanced at the highest possible level. If you graph it (which you can if you take blood samples), when you start running fast the lactic acid level in the blood climbs rapidly until your body reacts and starts converting it, reaching a balance. If you go a little faster both the production and the utilization climb, holding a balance. This carries on until at a certain speed (or effort) range the production keeps going up and utilization flat lines. We want to exercise just UNDER that. This encourages your body to get better at converting it, so that in the future you will be able to sustain a higher effort. Going too fast is less effective, going too slow is less effective. Not USELESS, but less effective. Remember though it is still a range we are looking at rather than a single perfect point.

This is an area where "how you feel" can deceive you. Some people will feel plenty stressed at 85% of their highest lactic acid balance level, and will not be providing much incentive for their body to adapt. Others will not feel like they are "really working" until they are producing significantly more lactic acid than their body can handle. This seems to be less effective at forcing the body to adapt the LT, and has the obvious downside of being harder than neccessary.

Why is pushing too hard bad? Well, assuming you are trying to maximize your training, you have another workout scheduled that you should JUST have recovered enough to perform. If you work too hard in one workout it SHOULD affect the next workout (if your program is as aggressive as it could be).

[Stella]

Why is pushing too hard bad? Well, assuming you are trying to maximize your training, you have another workout scheduled that you should JUST have recovered enough to perform. If you work too hard in one workout it SHOULD affect the next workout (if your program is as aggressive as it could be).

Very well put!

[MichaelMc]

All this talk about making yourselves faster runners....does anyone do speed work? The purpose of a tempo run is to build your strength endurance at a "close to" race pace or PE whichever fits. The increased speed should be honed in shorter distance intervals (eg. 1k/1 mi repeats) generally done at a faster pace.

In training for a marathon, I usually do my speed work at my 5k PE pace (or a pace I feel I could hold for 20 mins)

Shouldn't the speedwork be specific to the race. Would a miler benefit from a fast 20 mile run. I think the shorter intervals are good for shorter races.

In my world "Threshold" (eg Tempo) runs ARE speedwork, along with Intervals, Repetitions. Each has a different purpose; runners racing all distances should do all of the types of training, but the importance of each varies by distance. Marathon runners often add in some Marathon pace running: not important for other distances. In my current (Daniels) program I have six weeks of general base building, six weeks focused on Repetitions, six weeks on Intervals, and six weeks where Tempo is the main focus. I have MP runs once every four weeks. Because lactic acid threshold is so important to marathon running there is SOME in almost every week, even when it isn't the main focus. I also do some "strides" which is some nice fast turnover stuff, unstructured, virtually every week including the base phase.

Nice variety of paces, not too limiting IMHO

[flexrun]

This is how I define a tempo run:
A run designed to adapt my body to feeling comfortable at a faster pace.
8 to 10 miles would be for speed indurance.Work on form and relaxation to minimize exertion.Try to feel comfortable.
3 to 5 miles would be for improved turnover.Push out of the comfort zone.
The pace would be whatever it takes to get the desired feeling I want from the workout.

This is my definition of a tempo run also (that my coach taught me). I do a tempo run once a week as one of the three main ingredients of my weekly training workout. The other two are my long run and interval workouts. The long run is for endurance, the interval is for speed and the tempo run is to get my body comfortable and relaxed at race pace. I do adjust it according to the conditions (snow, ice, hills) so that the same effort is used and I use a heart rate monitor.

I am running 8 km for the tempo run and will gradually increase it up to 12. The last time that I tried this workout it took me about 5 weeks before I was really comfortable running that pace. It paid off in the end as I ran my best 1/2 ever.

This work out is excellent for me. I am training for a half marathon, then a full. Injury is my #1 enemy and I want to stay away from that just like any other runner. Not doing a warm up or cool down increases your chances of getting injured in my opinion and it isn't worth the risk.

My coach tells me that the key to improving is a structured workout and that means running with the clock as a guide line. He did tell me that I look at the garmin too much though .

He also said that the key to running a good marathon is staying relaxed while you are running and thats where getting comfortable with race pace comes in. Not being relaxed burns energy!

[ROW]

For me, a run that starts to hurt in the last 5 minutes. So for 30 minutes, around 3:55-4:05. But if I do 10-15 minutes I can usually sustain closer to 3:50-3:55 pace.

[nikexc84]

My idea of a tempo run is a slow steady build up of 15 mins then 5 to 8k of running at 15km to 1/2 marathon pace followed by a 15 min. warmdown
This will get you ready for races of 15m or better.

Cheers

10k PB 30 minutes
10 mile PB 49:05
1/2 1:06
8:58 steeplechase
3:55 1500m