Improvement in 5 km Time - Expectations

[Ironboy]

Wow. That's something I'll have to get my mind around.

[ultraslacker]

more intervals should take precedence over going faster.

Is that because we're trying to build more endurance at the target pace?

[turd ferguson]

...
(2) More intervals is the best way to nudge the progress. For 1K intervals at your speed, 5 is already a nice number, but depending on your mileage and what other types of speedwork (if any) that you're doing, you can probably top out at 6-8. Once you top out the number of intervals, you can consider changing the pace for the next time and going back to 5 intervals....

8 intervals? Really? That makes for a 16km interval session. I can't fathom running intervals for that long. I've always topped out at 5, building from 3.

Is this advice dependent on the length of the race? Are you advocating up to 8 1k intervals for a 5k goal race? Or are you thinking ahead to longer distances?

(I'm not being contrary, this is a genuine question)

[ian]

more intervals should take precedence over going faster.

Is that because we're trying to build more endurance at the target pace?

Training for any distance has an element of trying to build more endurance at the target pace. The intervals under consideration here are basically run at 5K race pace, therefore it is not unreasonable to think that it should be possible to run 5K worth of intervals in a single workout provided there is appropriate rest between the intervals. (Although I wouldn't extend this logic to longer distance races, lest anyone tries to do 42K worth of marathon pace in interval form; if in doubt, consider the recovery time for various race distances.)

More scientifically, the body takes a minute or two to reach VO2max and you want to spend some time near this point in order to encourage adaptations that increase your ability to process oxygen. The upper limit on the number of intervals is based on a runner's ability to recover from the workout so as not to compromise subsequent workouts; Daniels recommends 8% of weekly mileage as an upper limit on the distance for interval work.

Is this advice dependent on the length of the race? Are you advocating up to 8 1k intervals for a 5k goal race? Or are you thinking ahead to longer distances?

Based on my previous paragraph, the number of intervals tends to be constrained by a runner's mileage (and, presumably, ability to recover from the workout) moreso than the distance of the goal race. Longer distance runners (including me) will do interval work to develop power, efficiency, and to help improve an entire set of training paces. 5K specialists might still want to do more than 5K worth of intervals if their mileage warrants it because it can give the body a stronger stimulus to adapt. Similarly, although I know very little about shorter distance racing, I would suspect that a 800m specialist might well have workouts like 5x400m at goal pace, even though the workout has more distance than the race itself.

[MichaelMc]

I won't speak for Ian, but I've done 7 x 1km and also 5 x 1600m in my peak interval sessions.

While the total workout length (warmup, intervals, recoveries, cooldown) will be long, you can really only count the intervals themselves as "interval distance". IMHO the length of the race distance does NOT affect the amount of interval distance. You are attempting to provide the best stimulus to improve something (VO2max, in this case), the amount of distance depends on what provides the best stimulus without causing injury. There is no such thing as "short distance" or "long distance" VO2max, so the workout wouldn't change. How much time (weeks) you'd spend working on a certain fitness factor changes depending on your race distance, but whatever the race distance you want the most effective workout for any given factor. 8 x 1000 would be a tough workout.

As Ian says you DON'T have to up the ante every time: it could be that 5 is as many as you need (can do). Adaptations take time, and the more fit you are the longer it will take to progress. The idea you'll constantly be able to increase the workload is founded in the early stages of running.

[b_squared]

I'm reminded of this thread from last fall that had a lot of similarly useful information, especially the discussion of recovery times between intervals which I was wondering about.

[ultraslacker]

The upper limit on the number of intervals is based on a runner's ability to recover from the workout so as not to compromise subsequent workouts; Daniels recommends 8% of weekly mileage as an upper limit on the distance for interval work.

And I'm guessing that if 5x my intervals is pushing 8%, then priority would be on increasing mileage before increasing speed...?

[Jwolf]

8 intervals? Really? That makes for a 16km interval session. I can't fathom running intervals for that long. I've always topped out at 5, building from 3.

Remember that the rest is by time, not distance, so you're not doing 1K between intervals. Still, with warmup and cooldown, 8 x 1000m with equal rest is definitely a long workout. (I'm not the best example here, but I think I remember that the longest I've done when training for 5k and 10K races was 8 x 800m. But my rest between was not equal time, it was 75% time, and that turned out to be one lap, so only 400m. With warmup and cooldown the whole session was about 12K, I think.)

[ian]

I won't speak for Ian, but I've done 7 x 1km and also 5 x 1600m in my peak interval sessions.

10x800m is one of my favorites and 8x1K has also happened. I've put a higher emphasis on lactate threshold work in the last few years than I have on VO2 work, so I'm not sure where my comfort zone ends.

And I'm guessing that if 5x my intervals is pushing 8%, then priority would be on increasing mileage before increasing speed...?

If you're happy with your mileage and it dictates no more than 5 intervals (at your chosen distance; remember that intervals can be done at 600m or 800m, especially if 1K would take more than 5 minutes), then you happily do the 5 intervals at the prescribed pace and wait for evidence of a fitness increase before changing the pace.

[turd ferguson]

8 intervals? Really? That makes for a 16km interval session. I can't fathom running intervals for that long. I've always topped out at 5, building from 3.

Remember that the rest is by time, not distance, so you're not doing 1K between intervals. Still, with warmup and cooldown, 8 x 1000m with equal rest is definitely a long workout. (I'm not the best example here, but I think I remember that the longest I've done when training for 5k and 10K races was 8 x 800m. But my rest between was not equal time, it was 75% time, and that turned out to be one lap, so only 400m. With warmup and cooldown the whole session was about 12K, I think.)

Your quote attribution is wrong - that was Ironboy. I can in fact fathom running intervals that long.

[turd ferguson]

I won't speak for Ian, but I've done 7 x 1km and also 5 x 1600m in my peak interval sessions.

While the total workout length (warmup, intervals, recoveries, cooldown) will be long, you can really only count the intervals themselves as "interval distance". IMHO the length of the race distance does NOT affect the amount of interval distance. You are attempting to provide the best stimulus to improve something (VO2max, in this case), the amount of distance depends on what provides the best stimulus without causing injury. There is no such thing as "short distance" or "long distance" VO2max, so the workout wouldn't change. How much time (weeks) you'd spend working on a certain fitness factor changes depending on your race distance, but whatever the race distance you want the most effective workout for any given factor. 8 x 1000 would be a tough workout.

As Ian says you DON'T have to up the ante every time: it could be that 5 is as many as you need (can do). Adaptations take time, and the more fit you are the longer it will take to progress. The idea you'll constantly be able to increase the workload is founded in the early stages of running.

Thanks - very helpful.

I wasn't asking because i'm having trouble finishing long workouts, I'm just wondering about the purpose of long workouts when you're focusing on shorter races. That answer makes a lot of sense.

[b_squared]

The upper limit on the number of intervals is based on a runner's ability to recover from the workout so as not to compromise subsequent workouts; Daniels recommends 8% of weekly mileage as an upper limit on the distance for interval work.

And I'm guessing that if 5x my intervals is pushing 8%, then priority would be on increasing mileage before increasing speed...?

My little variation for this is as follows: I think Daniels recommends a combined total of about 18% mileage for intervals and threshold runs per week. For my relatively low mileage (~40k per week) I usually alternate 1km intervals or continuous tempos, every other week. So I might do a 5x1km one week, and 8km tempo the next. I'd be interested to hear how legitimate (?) this is but it works for me and my schedule, and allows me a good 'speed' workout within the limits of my weekly mileage.

[Jwolf]

8 intervals? Really? That makes for a 16km interval session. I can't fathom running intervals for that long. I've always topped out at 5, building from 3.

Remember that the rest is by time, not distance, so you're not doing 1K between intervals. Still, with warmup and cooldown, 8 x 1000m with equal rest is definitely a long workout. (I'm not the best example here, but I think I remember that the longest I've done when training for 5k and 10K races was 8 x 800m. But my rest between was not equal time, it was 75% time, and that turned out to be one lap, so only 400m. With warmup and cooldown the whole session was about 12K, I think.)

Your quote attribution is wrong - that was Ironboy. I can in fact fathom running intervals that long.

Sorry-- I hate the "don't embed 3 quotes" rule that forces me to edit and make mistakes. At least I don't make those mistakes on the track.

[ian]

My little variation for this is as follows: I think Daniels recommends a combined total of about 18% mileage for intervals and threshold runs per week. For my relatively low mileage (~40k per week) I usually alternate 1km intervals or continuous tempos, every other week. So I might do a 5x1km one week, and 8km tempo the next. I'd be interested to hear how legitimate (?) this is but it works for me and my schedule, and allows me a good 'speed' workout within the limits of my weekly mileage.

This is a sensible thing to do. One of my pet peeves with some of the introductory or low-mileage training programs out there is that every run seems to be a quality workout (tempo, intervals, hills, LSD) and that there's not enough emphasis on just getting some easy runs in.

[Doonst]

Sorry-- I hate the "don't embed 3 quotes" rule that forces me to edit and make mistakes. At least I don't make those mistakes on the track.

Or do you?

[Jwolf]

Sorry-- I hate the "don't embed 3 quotes" rule that forces me to edit and make mistakes. At least I don't make those mistakes on the track.

Or do you?

You confuse me, Doonst!

I haven't been on the track in over a year-- hope to get back there soon. The track was good to me before my 5K and 10K PBs.

[blank]

Boy, I've learned a lot from this thread.

Big thanks to Ian and Michael for clarifying so much about interval sessions.

[Kristen]

What is a 5K road race like?

[turd ferguson]

What is a 5K road race like?

Take it up to redline in the first 15 yards and hold it there until the finish. Just short of that vomity feeling.

[turd ferguson]

Boy, I've learned a lot from this thread.

Big thanks to Ian and Michael for clarifying so much about interval sessions.

Ditto. Its helping a ton about understanding the "why" of my workouts.

[Kristen]

Take it up to redline in the first 15 yards and hold it there until the finish. Just short of that vomity feeling.

Would that redline pace be just slightly slower (to start) than your V02 interval pace?

[chunkymonkeymelonhed]

Informative thread, thanks all.

[turd ferguson]

Take it up to redline in the first 15 yards and hold it there until the finish. Just short of that vomity feeling.

Would that redline pace be just slightly slower (to start) than your V02 interval pace?

I think the pace is about the same but now I'm in over my head. I know redline instinctively by feel but can't immediately relate it to an interval pace.

[Kristen]

I think the pace is about the same but now I'm in over my head. I know redline instinctively by feel but can't immediately relate it to an interval pace.

Are you able to describe it? Is there any point in time in a longer race where you might feel something similar? Or is this unique to a 5K?

[Pat Menzies]

It should feel exactly like the first couple of 1km repeats at 5km pace feel like, except you have to keep going. So it isn't redlining until you hit about 800m into the race.
In comparison to a longer race it should feel about the same as kilometer 17-18 in a half or kilometer 7-8 in a 10k. Way more similarities in all these races than differences.