Challenge Penticton

A cozy spot for triathletes and other multi-sporters

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Wu wei
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Wu wei » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:51 pm

IronColl wrote:Thanks Greg and Carla for your input. I was wondering sepecifically about the full distance. I will be doing the half in the future for sure.

As someone with limited resources I am unable to do IM or IM distance races as often as I would like (yearly), and I want as much of the experience as I can get. I am deterred by the lack of support I saw on the live feed and read here. As someone who is in the last quarter of participants, the numbers are few enough as it is, and I would have a hard time being that alone on the course. Unless IM comes back to Penticton I will be doing the full distance elsewhere.

That being said, I have done 3 different triathlons in the Penticton area and have enjoyed then and would love to continue racing 2 of them there.


The half is spectacular. Everyone loved the course, I think you will too. Bring a 28 granny gear though... and lower your tire pressure.

I can understand your reasoning on the full distance.
However, it's a bit ironic to want crowds to race when one won't race without crowds...
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Jwolf » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:50 pm

Wu wei wrote:However, it's a bit ironic to want crowds to race when one won't race without crowds...

What does this mean?
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Wu wei » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:30 pm

Jwolf wrote:
Wu wei wrote:However, it's a bit ironic to want crowds to race when one won't race without crowds...

What does this mean?


It's a prisoner's dilemma:

1) If persons A shows up to race, and B doesn't, A is lonely
2) If person B shows up to race, and A doesn't, B is lonely
3) If neither shows up, there is no race.
4) If both show up, both are happy to race because someone else showed up.

People who don't sign up because of fear of 1,2, cause 3 to happen.

People do Ironman because of the expectation of outcome 4.
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Jwolf » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:43 pm

Wu wei wrote:
Jwolf wrote:
Wu wei wrote:However, it's a bit ironic to want crowds to race when one won't race without crowds...

What does this mean?


It's a prisoner's dilemma:

1) If persons A shows up to race, and B doesn't, A is lonely
2) If person B shows up to race, and A doesn't, B is lonely
3) If neither shows up, there is no race.
4) If both show up, both are happy to race because someone else showed up.

People who don't sign up because of fear of 1,2, cause 3 to happen.

People do Ironman because of the expectation of outcome 4.


Ah, got it.

But it may take some time to reach that critical mass.

I guess the reverse is that many people find smaller events attractive, but as more and more people find them attractive, the bigger they become. This is the dilemma in some of the ultra events.
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby deerdree » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:33 pm

Wu wei wrote:
Jwolf wrote:
Wu wei wrote:However, it's a bit ironic to want crowds to race when one won't race without crowds...

What does this mean?


It's a prisoner's dilemma:

1) If persons A shows up to race, and B doesn't, A is lonely
2) If person B shows up to race, and A doesn't, B is lonely
3) If neither shows up, there is no race.
4) If both show up, both are happy to race because someone else showed up.

People who don't sign up because of fear of 1,2, cause 3 to happen.

People do Ironman because of the expectation of outcome 4.

This would be solved through public confirmation/registration pages since the prisoner's dilemma is contingent on A not knowing B's choice, and vice versa. :-)

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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Jwolf » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:54 pm

deerdree wrote:
Wu wei wrote:
Jwolf wrote:
Wu wei wrote:However, it's a bit ironic to want crowds to race when one won't race without crowds...

What does this mean?


It's a prisoner's dilemma:

1) If persons A shows up to race, and B doesn't, A is lonely
2) If person B shows up to race, and A doesn't, B is lonely
3) If neither shows up, there is no race.
4) If both show up, both are happy to race because someone else showed up.

People who don't sign up because of fear of 1,2, cause 3 to happen.

People do Ironman because of the expectation of outcome 4.

This would be solved through public confirmation/registration pages since the prisoner's dilemma is contingent on A not knowing B's choice, and vice versa. :-)


Not really, because many people wait to register till they see the numbers going up, but the more people that wait, the less the numbers go up. Hence, the dilemma.
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby CinC » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:19 pm

Or be like me and up your registration and then look at the numbers and go 'oh ****'
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby FishPants » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:53 am

I really hope that Challenge can expand and be the race that IMC was. I did a bit of cheering this year, but not a ton, and the course was lonely. I was the only cheer person on a very long stretch of South Main, and I felt bad that I wasn't there very long (I was sore and tired from my race the day before, and I had to keep Damon from running into traffic). Of the runners I cheered for, it seemed to be a mix of about half and half relay and solo. Very far apart, not the steady stream I was used to.

I do want to do the half one year. I was considering it for next year, but need some time to wrap my brain around it. I'm still tired from just a run half!

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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Dstew » Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:28 pm

I find it interesting to read the complaints of a lack of support after my experience with the Calgary half ironman tri this year as a non-participant. The course travels past my community where it is one and only one way to leave the community. Signs were up that warned of "some delays" between X and Y hours. I was going for a long run and exited the community on foot as I figured there might be some small problem in getting back in. I returned from my run and the traffic wanting to leave the community was two lanes and about one kilometer long. Goodness only knows how many people gave up trying to leave. If canvassed, I suspect that my community would overwhelming suggest that despite all of the positives that losing the race would not be a big loss. The kicker was that the police officer would not let me go through when there was a break in the bicyclists at first. He finally did as I was on foot and there was plenty of room and time. I went through, turned around to cheer but some narcissistic and self absorbed participant decided to moan about something it it sounded like it was me running across her path when she was at least 800 meters away. At best she was in the middle of the pack and my first thought was lady, you should be on your knees thanking the gods you can engage in this nice fantasy where all of these roads are closed for your benefit and be grateful that you are allowed to do the race rather then acting like a spoiled child because your race experience was not prefect.

As a marathoner I am was grateful that I get to run on the roads I do and I have had friends and family ask if they should come out and support me and my reply is that you might see me for a few seconds and I could not personally think of anything more boring to do then to sit and wait for me to come "running" by. I am always amazed that anyone is out cheering a group of people in a nice and healthy hobby but a hobby nevetheless.

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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Wu wei » Tue Sep 02, 2014 10:29 am

Dstew wrote:I find it interesting to read the complaints of a lack of support after my experience with the Calgary half ironman tri this year as a non-participant.


You can't compare a young Calgary suburb to a community that relies on tourism and big events and who's demographic is primarily retirees. Every resident I talked to (in Penticton) or overheard talking about the race was overwhelmingly supportive and wants the race.

Calgary 70.3 though... that race long term is in trouble. Ghost lake is a bust. Mackenzie was a temporary last minute save. Auburn Bay might last another year unless the community revolts. I've heard they are even considering Barrier Lake in Kananaskis... the water will be freezing and LONG morning shuttles. It's almost exactly 90km from T2...
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby jonovision_man » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:52 pm

Wu wei wrote:Calgary 70.3 though... that race long term is in trouble. Ghost lake is a bust. Mackenzie was a temporary last minute save. Auburn Bay might last another year unless the community revolts. I've heard they are even considering Barrier Lake in Kananaskis... the water will be freezing and LONG morning shuttles. It's almost exactly 90km from T2...


70.3s everywhere are in trouble... look what happened to the one in Newfoundland.

I actually find having to go through all the Ironman-esque stuff (bike check-in the day before etc.) a real hassle for "just" a half. The 70.3 in Muskoka is an early morning drive up for me, except they make you do the check-in so instead I need to go up there the day before... turns a one-off race day into a race weekend, I've passed on it for that reason (especially for the relay - not worth it IMO!)

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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby La » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:56 pm

jonovision_man wrote:I actually find having to go through all the Ironman-esque stuff (bike check-in the day before etc.) a real hassle for "just" a half. The 70.3 in Muskoka is an early morning drive up for me, except they make you do the check-in so instead I need to go up there the day before... turns a one-off race day into a race weekend, I've passed on it for that reason (especially for the relay - not worth it IMO!)

Right, because that's how they "sell" the benefit to the local community - people will come for the weekend and those rich triathletes will spend all their money in your town! ;)
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Wu wei » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:04 pm

jonovision_man wrote: except they make you do the check-in so instead I need to go up there the day before... turns a one-off race day into a race weekend, I've passed on it for that reason (especially for the relay - not worth it IMO!)

jono


I have a buddy that quit long course triathlon altogether because of that. He has three kids.
He wants to show up race morning, get it done, and go home.

For races with split transitions it makes sense if shuttling athletes. All other races... racking race morning shouldn't be an issue.
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby turd ferguson » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:12 pm

La wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:I actually find having to go through all the Ironman-esque stuff (bike check-in the day before etc.) a real hassle for "just" a half. The 70.3 in Muskoka is an early morning drive up for me, except they make you do the check-in so instead I need to go up there the day before... turns a one-off race day into a race weekend, I've passed on it for that reason (especially for the relay - not worth it IMO!)

Right, because that's how they "sell" the benefit to the local community - people will come for the weekend and those rich triathletes will spend all their money in your town! ;)


A big +1 to this as I'm dropping $$ on a Banff hotel room for Friday night for a completely unnecessary hotel stay for a race Saturday

ETA: Seriously, f*** any race organizer that sets a mandatory check in or a mandatory race meeting early in the day before the race to deliberately inconvenience racers into hotels.
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Challenge Penticton

Postby eme » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:28 pm

The only defence that I can give (as a triathlon official) for the day before check in and meeting is the numbers involved. I recently officiated at a race with about 500 people. Trying to get people out from transition setting up/body marking was a HUGE pain in the ass. I doubt that even half of the participants listened to the athlete briefing (i.e. Any hazards to be aware of) and knew of any issues on the course.

Just a thought that it may not e just to force people to get a hotel but it actually help with the safety of the race.

I in no way defend IM, as I see the price of their races as steep but I do see the risks of not having a safe race.


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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Wu wei » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:50 pm

eme wrote:body marking was a HUGE pain in the ass.


Apropos to this thread. Challenge Penticton had NO BODY MARKING. Absolutely no reason to continue with body marking at any race.

And before some responds with the AG "race" argument... people wear calf sleeves, people lie about their AG.

That's volunteers you can have elsewhere and save the athletes another queue in the morning.
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Challenge Penticton

Postby marymac442 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:13 pm

Wu wei wrote:
eme wrote:body marking was a HUGE pain in the ass.


Apropos to this thread. Challenge Penticton had NO BODY MARKING. Absolutely no reason to continue with body marking at any race.

And before some responds with the AG "race" argument... people wear calf sleeves, people lie about their AG.

That's volunteers you can have elsewhere and save the athletes another queue in the morning.



I have to agree that body marking is pretty pointless when athletes are all wearing wetsuits that cover the markings.

It does make for cool tans on sunny races :)
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby turd ferguson » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:00 pm

Then put out a can of sharpies and ask people to mark their own AG's without volunteers.

Body marking is something I wish more road races did - where you've got multiple races going at the same time on the same course (eg 10k and half) its nice to know if the person you're racing is even in the same event, much less the same AG.
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby eme » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:52 pm

Okay, so no body marking. It is still like herding cats on race morning to pass on needed information. Having the mandatory meeting the day before could be a valid safety requirement.

Feel free to ***** when you are one of the ones responsible for picking people off the pavement because the didn't know about a hazard because they didn't go to the safety meeting on race morning because they were too busy setting up their transition spot.

I am a triathlete and I officiate to give back to the sport at the local level (no officials, no sanctioning of the race), so I see both sides.


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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Wu wei » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:03 pm

eme wrote:Okay, so no body marking. It is still like herding cats on race morning to pass on needed information. Having the mandatory meeting the day before could be a valid safety requirement.

Feel free to ***** when you are one of the ones responsible for picking people off the pavement because the didn't know about a hazard because they didn't go to the safety meeting on race morning because they were too busy setting up their transition spot.

I am a triathlete and I officiate to give back to the sport at the local level (no officials, no sanctioning of the race), so I see both sides.


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FYI, I have been an official for 4 years. I find many people don't pay much attention, or even show up to the "mandatory" race meetings. If there is are last minute course issues, the RD needs to get out there with signage, volunteers, whatever it takes. People hit the pavement on the "safest" of course. I once did a KOS race where a 10 year old rode his bike right into the back of a parked van on an extra wide residential street that was closed to traffic. Or that one athlete who always manages to crash over the railroad tracks or cattle guard regardless of what you cover them with.
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby jonovision_man » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:44 pm

Wu wei wrote:
jonovision_man wrote: except they make you do the check-in so instead I need to go up there the day before... turns a one-off race day into a race weekend, I've passed on it for that reason (especially for the relay - not worth it IMO!)

jono


I have a buddy that quit long course triathlon altogether because of that. He has three kids.
He wants to show up race morning, get it done, and go home.


Me too (3 kids).

The other halfs around here have race-day check-in. I did the Peterborough 1/2 Iron in July, didn't have to go up until race morning. Drove up early in the morning, home mid-afternoon, still had time to mow the lawn and do family stuff. The Welland half also had race-day check-in. Smaller fields, so that could make a difference.

Oh and I'm guilty as charged when it comes to pre-race meetings...

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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Dstew » Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:51 pm

turd ferguson wrote:
La wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:I actually find having to go through all the Ironman-esque stuff (bike check-in the day before etc.) a real hassle for "just" a half. The 70.3 in Muskoka is an early morning drive up for me, except they make you do the check-in so instead I need to go up there the day before... turns a one-off race day into a race weekend, I've passed on it for that reason (especially for the relay - not worth it IMO!)

Right, because that's how they "sell" the benefit to the local community - people will come for the weekend and those rich triathletes will spend all their money in your town! ;)


A big +1 to this as I'm dropping $$ on a Banff hotel room for Friday night for a completely unnecessary hotel stay for a race Saturday

ETA: Seriously, f*** any race organizer that sets a mandatory check in or a mandatory race meeting early in the day before the race to deliberately inconvenience racers into hotels.



Could be a Banff thing as the Banff marathon was the same way. Charge $250 late registration fee to run the race and add insult to injury with a mandatory pre race briefing the day before and so at least $180 for one night hotel room at the reduced rate. I wonder why it was not sold out?

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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby turd ferguson » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:25 pm

Dstew wrote:
turd ferguson wrote:
La wrote:
jonovision_man wrote:I actually find having to go through all the Ironman-esque stuff (bike check-in the day before etc.) a real hassle for "just" a half. The 70.3 in Muskoka is an early morning drive up for me, except they make you do the check-in so instead I need to go up there the day before... turns a one-off race day into a race weekend, I've passed on it for that reason (especially for the relay - not worth it IMO!)

Right, because that's how they "sell" the benefit to the local community - people will come for the weekend and those rich triathletes will spend all their money in your town! ;)


A big +1 to this as I'm dropping $$ on a Banff hotel room for Friday night for a completely unnecessary hotel stay for a race Saturday

ETA: Seriously, f*** any race organizer that sets a mandatory check in or a mandatory race meeting early in the day before the race to deliberately inconvenience racers into hotels.



Could be a Banff thing as the Banff marathon was the same way. Charge $250 late registration fee to run the race and add insult to injury with a mandatory pre race briefing the day before and so at least $180 for one night hotel room at the reduced rate. I wonder why it was not sold out?


They've fixed the schedule a bit. A couple of years ago the meeting was at 4, meaning not only the hotel room but missing a half day of work. For a race that starts at 10 a.m. the next day.
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Jwolf » Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:39 pm

marymac442 wrote:
Wu wei wrote:
eme wrote:body marking was a HUGE pain in the ass.


Apropos to this thread. Challenge Penticton had NO BODY MARKING. Absolutely no reason to continue with body marking at any race.

And before some responds with the AG "race" argument... people wear calf sleeves, people lie about their AG.

That's volunteers you can have elsewhere and save the athletes another queue in the morning.



I have to agree that body marking is pretty pointless when athletes are all wearing wetsuits that cover the markings.



And, many races have wave starts now, making it even less useful.

The pool swim triathlons I've done use body marking but it just had the race number-- no age group. They used the body marking to identify the swimmers as they entered the pool, although the chip has negated the need for that. They still like to use it as backup.
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Re: Challenge Penticton

Postby Wu wei » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:58 am

“It is not he who reviles or strikes you who insults you, but your opinion that these things are insulting.”
Epictetus


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